Nativization of Forces

The limiting factor is equipping them.

Not just heavy or support weapons and artillery but arming the infantry. Manufacturing that many small arms from a standing start for Siddarmark- since the majority of Charisan capability is tied up with upgrading to the M96- takes time. If I remember correctly, as the Charisans get M96's, the Trapdoor conversions they are currently using are being passed on to the Siddarmarkian units.

In HFQ, it's mentioned that the thousands of rifles captured by Eastshare (from the Desnarians?, Dohlarians? or both? which ever army he took apart and sent running back home) were being used to arm a couple new Siddarmarkian divisions and all of the Church's St whoever Ferguson copies that were captured are being used to arm other new formations as well. It was noted that they weren't as good as M96's or even Trapdoors but they were better than front stuffers or nothing.

The Charisans are also spreading out their manufacturing of small arms and ammunition. Well, more multiplying than spreading out.

A major powder and ammunition plant is coming on line on Emerald- they are already shipping excess brass from Old Charis there with brass drawing lines are expected to be coming on line in Emerald shortly- and another set of arms and ammunition plants being set up in Chisolm.

jtg452 wrote:The limiting factor is equipping them.

Not just heavy or support weapons and artillery but arming the infantry. Manufacturing that many small arms from a standing start for Siddarmark- since the majority of Charisan capability is tied up with upgrading to the M96- takes time. If I remember correctly, as the Charisans get M96's, the Trapdoor conversions they are currently using are being passed on to the Siddarmarkian units.

In HFQ, it's mentioned that the thousands of rifles captured by Eastshare (from the Desnarians?, Dohlarians? or both? which ever army he took apart and sent running back home) were being used to arm a couple new Siddarmarkian divisions and all of the Church's St whoever Ferguson copies that were captured are being used to arm other new formations as well. It was noted that they weren't as good as M96's or even Trapdoors but they were better than front stuffers or nothing.

The Charisans are also spreading out their manufacturing of small arms and ammunition. Well, more multiplying than spreading out.

A major powder and ammunition plant is coming on line on Emerald- they are already shipping excess brass from Old Charis there with brass drawing lines are expected to be coming on line in Emerald shortly- and another set of arms and ammunition plants being set up in Chisolm.

FWIR, in most cases, good logistics are critical in warfare. For that matter, they make a big difference in other scenarios also - take a look at the sources of most of the canned and packaged food in your cupboards. Our backyard garden may be paying off some at present, but the primary reason is for redundancy: backup in case the current food logistics system breaks down. It is hard to do much when you need to concentrate on how to get your next meal!

BTW, those who might be interested in a good back up wood stove might search on: ("rocket stove" AND Liberator). AFAIK, it is the first rocket stove (with their advantages) that is UL approved for indoor use. It can be used for either cooking and/or heating. The web site is:

http://www.rocketheater.com/

crucisnh wrote:Also, at what point might we see Corisandian forces added to the mix? Or might they be used to supplement the training cadres up on Chisolm when the local anti-imperial nobles finally decide to get all uppity?

It should be occurring in the not too distant future. In HFQ, Nimue apologizes for being late to a virtual meeting in Nimnue's Cave because she was tied up in a late meeting. They were working out the details of integrating Corisandian forces into the Imperial military. Tartarian, in particular, wanted his Admiral's streamer back.

We can expect to see Corisandian officers turning up in the ICN, and there will likely be at least a trickle of recruits for the ICA, as the lesson sinks in that Zhaspar Clyntahn and cronies were largely responsible for getting Corisande into the mess Cayleb and Sharleyan are trying to clean up, and that Clyntahn was the one who had Prince Hector murdered.

There are already significant numbers of recruits from Zebediah. After Hauwyl Chermyn became the new Grand Duke, freed the serfs, and gave Zebediah the first good government it may have ever had, I think the average person on the street in Zebediah would probably say becoming part of the EoC was the best thing to ever happen to them.

Corisande had good government (for Safehold) under Hector, so acceptance of the new political arrangements is still a work in progress. But Sharleyan made a major start with Corisande in her handling of the Northern Conspiracy, and Corisandians are starting to believe she meant what she said about rule of law and the Corisandian's were now her people, to be treated and defended like anyone else in the Empire. (Having Prince Daivyn the third ranking noble in the Empire, and Princess Irys married to Cayleb and Sharleyan's adopted son were additional major factors. Becoming a full part of the Empire with access to Imperial markets and Imperial support for internal development will go a long way toward solidifying arrangements. There's nothing like nobody shooting at you, not living in a war zone, and having marks in your pocket and an increasing standard of living to help reconcile you to the new arrangements. )

Corisande's armed forces were reduced after Cayleb's conquest - I believe Sir Koryn had a total of about 30,000 under arms for local peacekeeping - so it will be a bit before we see Corisandians in any real quantity as ground troops. There aren't that many of those already trained and under arms that could be freed up for foreign service, though I assume the official Charisian presence is being steadily reduced as the need for them drops.

I don't think Sharleyan will need their assistance in Chisholm to deal with uppity nobles, but if asked I'm sure Sir Koryn and his folks would be delighted to lend a hand, and Corisande is rather closer than Siddarmark. "Oh, you have stupid great nobles who haven't learned anything and have delusions of grandeur? Been there. Dealt with that here. We can help do it in Chisholm if you want..."
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Dennis

DMcCunney wrote:

crucisnh wrote:Also, at what point might we see Corisandian forces added to the mix? Or might they be used to supplement the training cadres up on Chisolm when the local anti-imperial nobles finally decide to get all uppity?

It should be occurring in the not too distant future. In HFQ, Nimue apologizes for being late to a virtual meeting in Nimnue's Cave because she was tied up in a late meeting. They were working out the details of integrating Corisandian forces into the Imperial military. Tartarian, in particular, wanted his Admiral's streamer back.

We can expect to see Corisandian officers turning up in the ICN, and there will likely be at least a trickle of recruits for the ICA, as the lesson sinks in that Zhaspar Clyntahn and cronies were largely responsible for getting Corisande into the mess Cayleb and Sharleyan are trying to clean up, and that Clyntahn was the one who had Prince Hector murdered.

There are already significant numbers of recruits from Zebediah. After Hauwyl Chermyn became the new Grand Duke, freed the serfs, and gave Zebediah the first good government it may have ever had, I think the average person on the street in Zebediah would probably say becoming part of the EoC was the best thing to ever happen to them.

Corisande had good government (for Safehold) under Hector, so acceptance of the new political arrangements is still a work in progress. But Sharleyan made a major start with Corisande in her handling of the Northern Conspiracy, and Corisandians are starting to believe she meant what she said about rule of law and the Corisandian's were now her people, to be treated and defended like anyone else in the Empire. (Having Prince Daivyn the third ranking noble in the Empire, and Princess Irys married to Cayleb and Sharleyan's adopted son were additional major factors. Becoming a full part of the Empire with access to Imperial markets and Imperial support for internal development will go a long way toward solidifying arrangements. There's nothing like nobody shooting at you, not living in a war zone, and having marks in your pocket and an increasing standard of living to help reconcile you to the new arrangements. )

Corisande's armed forces were reduced after Cayleb's conquest - I believe Sir Koryn had a total of about 30,000 under arms for local peacekeeping - so it will be a bit before we see Corisandians in any real quantity as ground troops. There aren't that many of those already trained and under arms that could be freed up for foreign service, though I assume the official Charisian presence is being steadily reduced as the need for them drops.

I don't think Sharleyan will need their assistance in Chisholm to deal with uppity nobles, but if asked I'm sure Sir Koryn and his folks would be delighted to lend a hand, and Corisande is rather closer than Siddarmark. "Oh, you have stupid great nobles who haven't learned anything and have delusions of grandeur? Been there. Dealt with that here. We can help do it in Chisholm if you want..."
_______
Dennis

Hi Dennis,

I agree with this post... To supplement your comment a bit, IIRC, Corisande fielded somewhat over 130,000 men in its war against Charis. Those 30,000 only were what Cayleb allowed Corisande to keep under arms to maintain order in the aftermath of the war.

That means that there are a hundred thousand plus veterans who are potentially available for service who would have foundational military skills but would need the rust knocked off along with needing to be trained with current tactics and weapons. My guess is that a full bore recruitment program could net as many as 250,000 plus from Corisande.

One must bear in mind, however, that as the one province of the Empire that was added through conquest, Corisande's ties to the Empire are probably the most fragile and will be for some time. That could be a limiting factor on recruitment.

Don

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jtg452 wrote:The limiting factor is equipping them.

Not just heavy or support weapons and artillery but arming the infantry. Manufacturing that many small arms from a standing start for Siddarmark- since the majority of Charisan capability is tied up with upgrading to the M96- takes time. If I remember correctly, as the Charisans get M96's, the Trapdoor conversions they are currently using are being passed on to the Siddarmarkian units.

In HFQ, it's mentioned that the thousands of rifles captured by Eastshare (from the Desnarians?, Dohlarians? or both? which ever army he took apart and sent running back home) were being used to arm a couple new Siddarmarkian divisions and all of the Church's St whoever Ferguson copies that were captured are being used to arm other new formations as well. It was noted that they weren't as good as M96's or even Trapdoors but they were better than front stuffers or nothing.

The Charisans are also spreading out their manufacturing of small arms and ammunition. Well, more multiplying than spreading out.

A major powder and ammunition plant is coming on line on Emerald- they are already shipping excess brass from Old Charis there with brass drawing lines are expected to be coming on line in Emerald shortly- and another set of arms and ammunition plants being set up in Chisolm.

Your comment about equiping the new units being stood up being the limiting factor is right on target. However that becomes less true as the EOC's industrial plant continues to expand and as Siddarmark's comes on line, turning what was a trickle of weapons into a flood.

In the interim, I've wondered why they couldn't take those muzzle loaders currently in use and manufacture kits to turn them into St. Klymams so that everybody on the alliance side would have breach loaders.

Don

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n7axw wrote:
In the interim, I've wondered why they couldn't take those muzzle loaders currently in use and manufacture kits to turn them into St. Klymams so that everybody on the alliance side would have breach loaders.

Don

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The biter bit! On a poetic justice level, it sounds wonderful. Why should technology transfer be all in one direction?

Don't know how it would work out logistically, re impacting the supply of M96s or prolonging the headache of needing different kinds of ammo.

n7axw wrote:In the interim, I've wondered why they couldn't take those muzzle loaders currently in use and manufacture kits to turn them into St. Klymams so that everybody on the alliance side would have breach loaders.

Depending on the degree of interchangeability (bore size) and quality of the steel (iron barrels won't do) manufacturing a bolt action receiver and modifying the stock for a magazine well would be a step better than conversion to St Klymans.

But that assumes that the barrels are the bottle-neck in M96 production, which is probably a bad assumption. The receivers of bolt0sactions require much more precision machining than the barrels.

Melting and reforging old muzzle-loaders as raw material for M96 production would be a better use for obsolete weapons.

Randomiser wrote:

n7axw wrote:
In the interim, I've wondered why they couldn't take those muzzle loaders currently in use and manufacture kits to turn them into St. Klymams so that everybody on the alliance side would have breach loaders.

Don

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The biter bit! On a poetic justice level, it sounds wonderful. Why should technology transfer be all in one direction?

Don't know how it would work out logistically, re impacting the supply of M96s or prolonging the headache of needing different kinds of ammo.

It seems to me that producing a conversion kit shouldn't be all that difficult. OTOH, it could be a real pain if the captured guns, converted or not, required a non-standard ammo.

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:In the interim, I've wondered why they couldn't take those muzzle loaders currently in use and manufacture kits to turn them into St. Klymams so that everybody on the alliance side would have breach loaders.

Depending on the degree of interchangeability (bore size) and quality of the steel (iron barrels won't do) manufacturing a bolt action receiver and modifying the stock for a magazine well would be a step better than conversion to St Klymans.

But that assumes that the barrels are the bottle-neck in M96 production, which is probably a bad assumption. The receivers of bolt0sactions require much more precision machining than the barrels.

Melting and reforging old muzzle-loaders as raw material for M96 production would be a better use for obsolete weapons.

I think that the answer to the final point may hinge on whether the captured guns required a non-standard ammo or not, since having to set up a production line to support a captured gun ammo might be more hassle than it's worth. In which case, I could see the argument in favor of just melting them down and making new, EoC-standard rifles from the raw material.

n7axw wrote:

DMcCunney wrote:<...>

We can expect to see Corisandian officers turning up in the ICN, and there will likely be at least a trickle of recruits for the ICA, as the lesson sinks in that Zhaspar Clyntahn and cronies were largely responsible for getting Corisande into the mess Cayleb and Sharleyan are trying to clean up, and that Clyntahn was the one who had Prince Hector murdered.

I agree with this post... To supplement your comment a bit, IIRC, Corisande fielded somewhat over 130,000 men in its war against Charis. Those 30,000 only were what Cayleb allowed Corisande to keep under arms to maintain order in the aftermath of the war.

That means that there are a hundred thousand plus veterans who are potentially available for service who would have foundational military skills but would need the rust knocked off along with needing to be trained with current tactics and weapons. My guess is that a full bore recruitment program could net as many as 250,000 plus from Corisande.

Needing retraining and re-equipping is an important factor. Especially re-equipping - Charis is straining every sinew to produce new equipment, and spreading out the load by bringing new capacity on stream elsewhere, but it can't do everything at once.

We also don't know what happened to the Corisandian Army troops who were demobilized after the conquest, but we can assume reintegration into peacetime society, so it's not like there would be a bunch sitting on their hands waiting for something to do. What sort of disruption to the local economy might result if they got called up en mass?

One must bear in mind, however, that as the one province of the Empire that was added through conquest, Corisande's ties to the Empire are probably the most fragile and will be for some time. That could be a limiting factor on recruitment.

I alluded to that earlier, which is why I don't expect to see recruitment to occur in any quantity for a while. Corisande is getting accustomed to the idea of being a province of the EoC, but that's still a work in progress.

Cayleb and Sharleyan discussed that in HFQ, because Sharleyan felt she really needed to return to Tellesberg as part of the constitutional requirements of the Empire, but Corisande was still new to the fold. Getting Earl Coris on board as a member of the Inner Circle was a piece of that puzzle. With Daivyn formally confirmed as reigning Prince, his sister as his regent (and married to Cayleb and Sharleyan's adopted son), and the strong support of the Regency Council, not to mention Seijin Nimue's assistance. Sharleyan and Cayleb agreed she could depart without the wheels coming off the cart.

And thinking about it, while Corisandian assistance might be available to Sharleyan to help her deal with recalcitrant nobles in Chisholm, she'd really rather not need to use it. Chisholm still isn't 100% reconciled to being part of the EoC on the part of various great nobles who see their own position diminished, and the ones who are the main concern aren't the only ones who might feel unhappy. If she has to resort to calling out the army to put down an insurrection, it will be important that the troops be Chisholmian troops. Using imports from Corisande to assist would not go over well in Chisholm.
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Dennis