Are Merlin's Welsh Names A Security Risk?

JeffEngel wrote:

jgnfld wrote:Yes, a running AI/reconstituted body/whatever with a knowledge of Earth would recognize the Earth reference.

Since no entity recognizably has, the inference to be made is obvious.

It leaves open the possibility of a singularly poorly informed AI, unaware of Merlin's names, incidents of Arabic numerals in use on Safehold, and possibly any terrestrial phrases or other good lines slipping into Maikel Staynair's sermons, the Ahrmahks' public statements, etc.

Just what the AI is supposed to be doing consistent with being that much of a shut-in is a wide open question. I guess another bare possibility to be mooted is an AI that's well enough informed and does not care about the fleshy goings-on on Safehold. It's been close on a thousand years with no one to talk to and the so very, very slow fleshy sorts creeping about doing things with which it shares no background at all. I doubt a full-blown, self-aware, boredom-enabled AI could go on giving a toss after all that time.

There are lots of Safehold names that have old earth roots even if the spelling is somewhat altered. Consider Haarahld, Cayleb, Sharleyan, Nynian, Domynik (sp), Lewys, Kynt and on and on it goes. I doubt that Merlin and Nimue stand out as particularly odd..

Don

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n7axw wrote:There are lots of Safehold names that have old earth roots even if the spelling is somewhat altered. Consider Haarahld, Cayleb, Sharleyan, Nynian, Domynik (sp), Lewys, Kynt and on and on it goes. I doubt that Merlin and Nimue stand out as particularly odd..

Don

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On the flip side, no one today names their kid "Merlin" and there doesn't seem to be any evidence that that's changed in the Federation. And unless there's been changes to pop culture in 400 years, "Merlin" should be instantly recognizable to anyone from the Federation.

And I think it was noted somewhere that "Merlin" and "Nimue" ARE outlandish names. Outlandish names have even become a notable Seijinn trait (at least to those who know Seijinn names), at least for Seijinn who aren't trying to pass as normal Safeholdians.

evilauthor wrote:

n7axw wrote:There are lots of Safehold names that have old earth roots even if the spelling is somewhat altered. Consider Haarahld, Cayleb, Sharleyan, Nynian, Domynik (sp), Lewys, Kynt and on and on it goes. I doubt that Merlin and Nimue stand out as particularly odd..

Don

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On the flip side, no one today names their kid "Merlin" and there doesn't seem to be any evidence that that's changed in the Federation. And unless there's been changes to pop culture in 400 years, "Merlin" should be instantly recognizable to anyone from the Federation.

And I think it was noted somewhere that "Merlin" and "Nimue" ARE outlandish names. Outlandish names have even become a notable Seijinn trait (at least to those who know Seijinn names), at least for Seijinn who aren't trying to pass as normal Safeholdians.

Outlandish? Try Myrlyn and Nymue...Looks a bit more normal now, doesn't it?

Don

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I have to say that names on Safehold have bothered me quite a bit. Not the spelling or pronunciation but as they relate to Creation.

God created all Adams and Eves in the same moment. They did not exist prior to Creation or so the Writ would have people believe if it does not state it directly. God gave each Adam and Eve a given name and a family name. He created some with siblings and or spouses and other without any relation but with a family name.

All names on Safehold were given by God initially. It follows that new and outlandish names are inferior UNLESS they can also claim direct divine inspiration. Safehold fathers and mothers would not name a child using a completely novel name for fear of having that child viewed as suspect by the Church or even just the neighbors.

Outlandish seijin names then are likely to reinforce either that seijin serve divinity or that they serve the Dark. So, while these sorts of names might have an impact on intelligences with knowledge of the future, it would likely offer advantages for all other Safehold residents.

PeterZ wrote:I have to say that names on Safehold have bothered me quite a bit. Not the spelling or pronunciation but as they relate to Creation.

God created all Adams and Eves in the same moment. They did not exist prior to Creation or so the Writ would have people believe if it does not state it directly. God gave each Adam and Eve a given name and a family name. He created some with siblings and or spouses and other without any relation but with a family name.

All names on Safehold were given by God initially. It follows that new and outlandish names are inferior UNLESS they can also claim direct divine inspiration. Safehold fathers and mothers would not name a child using a completely novel name for fear of having that child viewed as suspect by the Church or even just the neighbors.

Given how much spelling and pronunciation of names and everything else have changed since Creation, there has to be something wrong in the argument that they would not possibly have done so. I doubt divine inspiration could be claimed for nearly every name in current use on Safehold. Maybe they took precisely the opposite tack: the names God granted Adams and Eves were to be reserved for them and the earliest generations; perhaps anyone born after the Fall was to be given a name not claimed by any (known to the parents) Adam or Eve, but rather some variation that marked them as less holy than those pre-Fall beings, removed a bit from the divine grace by Shan-wei's rebellion, and (incidentally) in better conformation to developing spelling and pronunciation.

Outlandish seijin names then are likely to reinforce either that seijin serve divinity or that they serve the Dark. So, while these sorts of names might have an impact on intelligences with knowledge of the future, it would likely offer advantages for all other Safehold residents.

The seijin names aren't universally exotic; Ahraim Zhevons, for instance, passes as need be for a typical Silkiahan. Still, that some of them have exotic names should fit, one way or another, assigning them exotic origins. (Or the use of aliases, or adoption of new names as part of being a seijin - it's a list of possibilities.)

I don't recall there being children amoung the Adams and Eves but I could be wrong.

I also don't recall that the spelling variations on the names we see were all given by Langhorn, my presumption was that after 800 years and the various countries involved, it was linguist drift. We see a lot of cultural variation in the differnt countries which MAY have started with what the reprograming of the Adam and Eves gave them but, again, 800 years can create a lot of differences with things that are not specifically mentioned the the Books

Just why would Langhorn include Terran Legends in the various databases of whatever is left under the Temple? Tales from Ancient Times....not if Langhorn created everything as of X point in time, there CAN'T be any Ancient Times.

What is a Merlin? Well, before it was a type of aircraft engine in the WW II time frame, it was a type of small falcon. Also a type of mortal deamon (half human). Since we don't really have much in the way of reports of actual names of the demons in the War of the Fallen, we can't be sure but it is unlikely that Nimue would have chosen Merlin as his/her/it's nome de guerre if any of the demons had been named (or called by the archangels) as merlin(s) for identifications in reporting.

For Safehold, Merlin is just a name, for Nimue it is a promise for the rise of humanity assisted by "old magic" of the Terran Federation.

Not everything about language has changed, Jeff. The written form of English for example has been fixed at the time of Creation. RFC's spelling is a function of pronunciation changes. So all the names are written just as they were at the time of Creation, they are simply pronounced differently. OAR III, Temple lands and Mountains of Light.

JeffEngel wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I have to say that names on Safehold have bothered me quite a bit. Not the spelling or pronunciation but as they relate to Creation.

God created all Adams and Eves in the same moment. They did not exist prior to Creation or so the Writ would have people believe if it does not state it directly. God gave each Adam and Eve a given name and a family name. He created some with siblings and or spouses and other without any relation but with a family name.

All names on Safehold were given by God initially. It follows that new and outlandish names are inferior UNLESS they can also claim direct divine inspiration. Safehold fathers and mothers would not name a child using a completely novel name for fear of having that child viewed as suspect by the Church or even just the neighbors.

Given how much spelling and pronunciation of names and everything else have changed since Creation, there has to be something wrong in the argument that they would not possibly have done so. I doubt divine inspiration could be claimed for nearly every name in current use on Safehold. Maybe they took precisely the opposite tack: the names God granted Adams and Eves were to be reserved for them and the earliest generations; perhaps anyone born after the Fall was to be given a name not claimed by any (known to the parents) Adam or Eve, but rather some variation that marked them as less holy than those pre-Fall beings, removed a bit from the divine grace by Shan-wei's rebellion, and (incidentally) in better conformation to developing spelling and pronunciation.

Outlandish seijin names then are likely to reinforce either that seijin serve divinity or that they serve the Dark. So, while these sorts of names might have an impact on intelligences with knowledge of the future, it would likely offer advantages for all other Safehold residents.

The seijin names aren't universally exotic; Ahraim Zhevons, for instance, passes as need be for a typical Silkiahan. Still, that some of them have exotic names should fit, one way or another, assigning them exotic origins. (Or the use of aliases, or adoption of new names as part of being a seijin - it's a list of possibilities.)

'Outlandish' is mostly a response to _hearing_ the names. Nobody is running around with a name tag reading "Athrawes, Merlin" on their breastplate. Written reports are certainly using standard Safehold phonetic conventions - probably those the reporter grew up with, so the Inquisition's files will have 2-5 versions of the spelling.

More importantly, nobody is feeding those files into a scanner. Even if the Thing were paying attention, it would be getting an audio feed, probably from the Grand Inquisitor's office in this case. Rayno, with his no doubt exquisite upper-crust Harchong pronunciation, and Clyntahn [probably Temple-Landish, but we don't know] will definitely be saying Dialydd Mab the way they see it, like 90+% of the people who just read it. One thing you can count on is that whatever they say won't be recognisably Welsh! The Thing is far more likely to be saying to itself "oh! these primitives are _so_ cute! now they're playing with invented languages. hmmmm... nope, nothing in the parameters about that, but maybe i should crank up the crypto module just in case..."

n7axw wrote:

evilauthor wrote:
On the flip side, no one today names their kid "Merlin" and there doesn't seem to be any evidence that that's changed in the Federation. And unless there's been changes to pop culture in 400 years, "Merlin" should be instantly recognizable to anyone from the Federation.

And I think it was noted somewhere that "Merlin" and "Nimue" ARE outlandish names. Outlandish names have even become a notable Seijinn trait (at least to those who know Seijinn names), at least for Seijinn who aren't trying to pass as normal Safeholdians.

Outlandish? Try Myrlyn and Nymue...Looks a bit more normal now, doesn't it?

Don

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PeterZ wrote:Not everything about language has changed, Jeff. The written form of English for example has been fixed at the time of Creation. RFC's spelling is a function of pronunciation changes. So all the names are written just as they were at the time of Creation, they are simply pronounced differently. OAR III, Temple lands and Mountains of Light.

If that's theoretically true, I'm hard pressed to believe it's been followed in practice.
Two examples:
'Cayleb' - I do not see any plausible way to read that such that is isn't pronounced precisely as we pronounce 'Caleb'. Trying to make another syllable with the 'y' would be something, but no one would do that and retain 'Caleb' for spelling.
'Sharleyan' - There isn't a current terrestrial name that would plausibly retain an identifiable spelling and get pronounced like that. 'Charlene' is a stretch - too much of one, really - and anything else is even worse.

Last, the notion that spelling of names is just fixed regardless of pronunciation would mean, among the barely literate masses of Safehold and their only somewhat more literate parish priests, that kids would end up with theoretical "names" being recorded in records that have practically no relation at all to how they're pronounced, because the dialects will go all over the place among people with mediocre contact with the rest of the world and very little influence of the written word on how they actually speak.

Probably the most charitable thing to do is just ignore the Safehold name spelling conventions, when RFC himself regrets them.

The whole thing makes me wonder what linguistics is like on Safehold. If they speak English, could they tell that it's had at least three different language groups meddle in it? Or rather, with only one language to work with, do they have any real understanding of linguistics? With no other context, how easy is it to read the history of a language?

Less esoterically, I recall some trees being called near-pines (or oaks or other tree). Unless they also have pines, wouldn't someone wonder what "pines" were that those trees were supposedly "near"?