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Elite Forces?

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Elite Forces?
Post by WeberFan   » Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:09 am

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Expert snuggler wrote:Walking into zones of murky ethics leads to interesting places.

Foster orphans in a seijin monastery, install NEATs in infancy, and program them so they can't tell anyone about riding in the assault shuttle.

That would be creepy.

It would create a capability to insert a significant force of augmented fighters anywhere outside the Temple itself in a matter of hours.

This would "prove" to the opposition that the underground seijin network was on every continent and able to field hundreds of seijins. They wouldn't even need TF weapons to be devastating. They'd have body armor and complete surprise.

Then, as Hiruu pointed out, they'd be kickass bodyguards. There's not enough of Merlin and Nimue to go around. There have been too many close calls. Imagine enough augmented personnel to provide 24/7 protection for the entire Inner Circle.

Why is it that when I read this thread - and your post in particular - I'm reminded of Kurt Russell in the sci fi movie "Soldier."

Similar premise...
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Re: Elite Forces?
Post by Keith_w   » Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:22 pm

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WeberFan wrote:
Expert snuggler wrote:Walking into zones of murky ethics leads to interesting places.

Foster orphans in a seijin monastery, install NEATs in infancy, and program them so they can't tell anyone about riding in the assault shuttle.

That would be creepy.

It would create a capability to insert a significant force of augmented fighters anywhere outside the Temple itself in a matter of hours.

This would "prove" to the opposition that the underground seijin network was on every continent and able to field hundreds of seijins. They wouldn't even need TF weapons to be devastating. They'd have body armor and complete surprise.

Then, as Hiruu pointed out, they'd be kickass bodyguards. There's not enough of Merlin and Nimue to go around. There have been too many close calls. Imagine enough augmented personnel to provide 24/7 protection for the entire Inner Circle.

Why is it that when I read this thread - and your post in particular - I'm reminded of Kurt Russell in the sci fi movie "Soldier."

Similar premise...

Love that movie Sir.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: Elite Forces?
Post by WeberFan   » Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:50 pm

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Keith_w wrote:
WeberFan wrote:Why is it that when I read this thread - and your post in particular - I'm reminded of Kurt Russell in the sci fi movie "Soldier."

Similar premise...

Love that movie Sir.

Me too. Which is why it stuck in my memory. Seeing the future soldiers as kids...
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Re: Elite Forces?
Post by AirTech   » Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:13 pm

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WeberFan wrote:Why is it that when I read this thread - and your post in particular - I'm reminded of Kurt Russell in the sci fi movie "Soldier."


Me too. Which is why it stuck in my memory. Seeing the future soldiers as kids...


or Ender's Game
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Re: Elite Forces?
Post by McGuiness   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:37 am

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AirTech wrote:
WeberFan wrote:Why is it that when I read this thread - and your post in particular - I'm reminded of Kurt Russell in the sci fi movie "Soldier."

Me too. Which is why it stuck in my memory. Seeing the future soldiers as kids...

or Ender's Game
Of course Hollywood pretty much botched the entire reason behind having "child soldiers" in "Ender's game," which was that some talents reach their peak in the early teens - like piano prodigies, theoretical physicists (Ok, early 20s for them) and apparently the commanders of the human fleets in an interstellar war.

"Ender's Game" was much more about finding and nurturing those talents in children who had the intelligence and flexibility to learn those skills and then achieve the symbiosis of becoming a true team to fight those battles. Ender would have failed without Bean there to point out enemy weaknesses and to act as his second in command when he collapsed, so although Ender got all the screen time, victory would have been impossible without Bean.

The movie "Starship Troopers" was despised by critics, who thought it showed a completely fascist state, when the government was based on people being required to serve a tour in the military in order to have the right to vote. That resulted in a government that could certainly organize and fight an interstellar war, but Hollywood botched it badly. (Where were the mech suits? They didn't show up until the THIRD movie, which nobody saw because it was a straight to DVD release.)

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Elite Forces?
Post by chrisd   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:59 pm

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McGuiness wrote:Of course Hollywood pretty much botched the entire reason behind having "child soldiers" in "Ender's game," which was that some talents reach their peak in the early teens - like piano prodigies, theoretical physicists (Ok, early 20s for them) and apparently the commanders of the human fleets in an interstellar war.

"Ender's Game" was much more about finding and nurturing those talents in children who had the intelligence and flexibility to learn those skills and then achieve the symbiosis of becoming a true team to fight those battles. Ender would have failed without Bean there to point out enemy weaknesses and to act as his second in command when he collapsed, so although Ender got all the screen time, victory would have been impossible without Bean.

The movie "Starship Troopers" was despised by critics, who thought it showed a completely fascist state, when the government was based on people being required to serve a tour in the military in order to have the right to vote. That resulted in a government that could certainly organize and fight an interstellar war, but Hollywood botched it badly. (Where were the mech suits? They didn't show up until the THIRD movie, which nobody saw because it was a straight to DVD release.)


Heinlein's book was much better than ANY of the films.
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Re: Elite Forces?
Post by Hiruu   » Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:15 pm

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Hmmm…Hektor was a young boy when he entered service for the crown, which was how he got adopted. Now granted…he was older than 5 or 6, but probably not by much. The British Navy (and others) routinely used young boys as Midshipmen. Now, the goal of these troops would basically be to do stuff that only Merlin or Nimue would normally be tasked to do, in addition to preparations for the second coming. You need them young, and I’ll say again…maybe not 6 or 7, but around about 10 or 11. They would probably not be operational for about age 16 or 17 for full operational capabilities. I think if you’re talking about from the embryonic stage, you’re delving into serious ethical dilemmas, but 10-11 seems fine, imho, given the current entry age into the Armed Forces of Safehold. I guess it’s all a matter of what is actually under the Temple, and what awakens in 30 years. An army of Adams and Eves would be devastating against Charis, especially given that Temple Forces would quickly get on technical par with them.
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Re: Elite Forces?
Post by McGuiness   » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:09 pm

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Hiruu wrote:Hmmm…Hektor was a young boy when he entered service for the crown, which was how he got adopted. Now granted…he was older than 5 or 6, but probably not by much. The British Navy (and others) routinely used young boys as Midshipmen. Now, the goal of these troops would basically be to do stuff that only Merlin or Nimue would normally be tasked to do, in addition to preparations for the second coming. You need them young, and I’ll say again…maybe not 6 or 7, but around about 10 or 11. They would probably not be operational for about age 16 or 17 for full operational capabilities. I think if you’re talking about from the embryonic stage, you’re delving into serious ethical dilemmas, but 10-11 seems fine, imho, given the current entry age into the Armed Forces of Safehold. I guess it’s all a matter of what is actually under the Temple, and what awakens in 30 years. An army of Adams and Eves would be devastating against Charis, especially given that Temple Forces would quickly get on technical par with them.
IIRC Hektor was eleven when he held King Haarahld as he died, although Haarahld would have survived if Hektor had just fought normally instead of trying to throw his body in front of an attacker to protect his king, so ironically he actually got Haarahld killed and was adopted into the royal family as a reward. Go figure...

Back to the subject of taking midshipmen and turning them into eventual high tech commandos, they may be a bit too young, depending on when the EoC wants to seize the Temple. The kids need to grow to physical maturity, or close to it, which would be 17-18 at least, especially since Safehold years are 10% shorter than Earth's. So if you want to do this sort of project, you either get a bunch of young recruits of age 12 or so with flexible minds, and train them to assault the Temple no sooner than five or six years from now, which is far too long to wait in my opinion, especially since the ICN could take the Temple tomorrow if they wanted to, and they've had that option since AMF.

The ICA merely needs to send several hundred burly "pilgrims" armed with revolvers to infiltrate and seize the temple. Then a fleet led by a couple of Haarahld VIIs sails into Temple Bay and up the Zion River, where they can shell any attempts by the Temple Guard and the Inquisition to organize and storm the Temple in an attempt to take it back. Meanwhile, as both Cayleb and Sharley have promised, "the transports will start unloading the troops." Since the doors can apparently be barred from within, the ICA "pilgrims" can play "Catch the Vicar," "Hunt the Inquisitor" and lots of other fun games while awaiting reinforcements. "Bayonet the Grand Inquisitor" would be my favorite of course, although I recommend they avoid any mortal wounds and merely let the fat pig bleed out... :twisted:

Yes, it would be cool to have the assault shuttle land in the Plaza of Martyrs with cannons roaring and unleash a couple of hundred assault troops firing TF weapons. At least those two million rounds of ammunition stored in Nimue's cave would see some use. Parking the shuttle right in front of the Temple is safer than it sounds, since that's the one spot on the planet that the OBS won't target.

However, this complicates the plot and is completely unnecessary. The "pilgrims" who infiltrate and seize the Temple will be reformist Chisholmians and Charisians, not a child army bearing TF weapons, whose presence might wake up whatever is in the basement a few hours prematurely, so it's not worth the risk. Finally, a few 500 lb shells fired from the Haarahld VIIs could destroy any Temple Guards or inquisitors who gather to retake the Temple, so conventional troops and shipboard artillery can do the job just fine without commandos using TF weapons and a TF assault shuttle.

How would the EoC explain to the countries who are teetering in their support of the Jihad that it attacked and seized the Temple using "angelic" weapons? (I suspect the Writ would call them "demonic.") The CoGA certainly would! I'd be hard pressed to think of a more effective way to fan the dying flames of support for a war that the CoGA is losing badly.

Once a single country surrenders to the allies, it's only a matter of time until the reaction of the Safeholdian in the street to an allied attack that seizes the Temple changes from "The heretics attacked the Temple! Get them!" to "Somebody finally did something about the corrupt vicars in the Temple! Maybe now Mother Church will call off this insane jihad before Siddarmark and Empire of Charis conquer the world!"

So it's a fun idea, but I don't see Merlin going for it - it's not necessary and despite the audacity of the Great Canal Raid and his rescue of Daivyn and Irys, Merlin usually adheres to the KISS theory of war. (Keep it simple, stupid!) DE and BGV are the ones who pull off the audacious campaigns.

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Elite Forces?
Post by wingfield   » Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:07 am

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chrisd wrote:
McGuiness wrote:Of course Hollywood pretty much botched the entire reason behind having "child soldiers" in "Ender's game," which was that some talents reach their peak in the early teens - like piano prodigies, theoretical physicists (Ok, early 20s for them) and apparently the commanders of the human fleets in an interstellar war.

"Ender's Game" was much more about finding and nurturing those talents in children who had the intelligence and flexibility to learn those skills and then achieve the symbiosis of becoming a true team to fight those battles. Ender would have failed without Bean there to point out enemy weaknesses and to act as his second in command when he collapsed, so although Ender got all the screen time, victory would have been impossible without Bean.

The movie "Starship Troopers" was despised by critics, who thought it showed a completely fascist state, when the government was based on people being required to serve a tour in the military in order to have the right to vote. That resulted in a government that could certainly organize and fight an interstellar war, but Hollywood botched it badly. (Where were the mech suits? They didn't show up until the THIRD movie, which nobody saw because it was a straight to DVD release.)


Heinlein's book was much better than ANY of the films.


Around 1980, I was of the opinion that "The Lord of the Rings" could not be filmed until there were significant advances in movie technology and that "Starship Troopers" could not be filmed at all.

It is comforting to know that I was correct on both counts.
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Re: Elite Forces?
Post by jgnfld   » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:01 pm

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McGuiness wrote:...
"Ender's Game" was much more about finding and nurturing those talents in children who had the intelligence and flexibility to learn those skills and then achieve the symbiosis of becoming a true team to fight those battles. Ender would have failed without Bean there to point out enemy weaknesses and to act as his second in command when he collapsed, so although Ender got all the screen time, victory would have been impossible without Bean.

The movie "Starship Troopers" was despised by critics, who thought it showed a completely fascist state, when the government was based on people being required to serve a tour in the military in order to have the right to vote. That resulted in a government that could certainly organize and fight an interstellar war, but Hollywood botched it badly. (Where were the mech suits? They didn't show up until the THIRD movie, which nobody saw because it was a straight to DVD release.)


2 quibbles:

1. re. Ender: I'm not sure "nurturing" is quite the correct thought. "Developing through any means necessary and cynically using" is closer.

2. re. Starship Troopers movie: The state depicted in the movie was pretty fascistic. Ctitics were quite correct to see that.
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