Naval Engagements

Dilandu wrote:They have shells. They didn't need such primitive weapon. Shells are more than capable of immobilizing the sail warships, by making impossible all sailwork.

Then they wouldn't have needed that primitive round shot either. </sarcasm>. Before they had exploding shells, they certainly would have used such "primitive" weapons.

captinjoehenry wrote:

Dilandu wrote:They have shells. They didn't need such primitive weapon. Shells are more than capable of immobilizing the sail warships, by making impossible all sailwork.

well thats true when your ship is a burning exploding wreak the worry about your sails is a moot point. And if you can get the timing right you just shoot shells at the rigging which would work much better than chain shot or bar shot.

That is unlikely to work as the shells would simply pass through the sails, as does round shot, that is why chain and bar shot were used, 2 heavy pieces of metal, attached to each other by a length of chain does much more damage to sails and rigging than a single smooth ball or not-exploding shell. Additionally how may engagements involving exploding shells have we seen? One or two? How many have we seen where round shot was involved? Many! and in how many of those engagements has there been a desire to take the prize. Certainly privateers have no desire to sink a ship - they want to take it whole and sell the contents, and the ship and it is hard to do that when it is sitting on the bottom of the ocean.

SWM wrote:

Keith_w wrote:True enough on Charis's side and they know it, but the temple side doesn't know that yet and Thirsk is certainly clever enough to think of ways to slow down Charisian galleons by bringing down their rigging so that his numbers can overwhelm them.

Thirsk never had a chance to come up with it before Charis started introducing even better stuff that Thirsk had to defeat.

As Sounour points out below, Charisian naval ships carried chain shot - so there is no reason to believe that Thirsk would not have known about it as well.

Sounour wrote:

Keith_w wrote:I've been wondering for a while why nobody is using chain or bar shot to disable enemy rigging.

They have chain shot... but I can't remember if it's been used anywhere.

A mighty fortess
OCTOBER,YEAR OF GOD 894
.I.
...
That sounded like an awful lot, Merlin reflected, but it wasn’t really, given the normal ammunition allotments of ICN galleons. The “establishment” was forty rounds of round shot, ten rounds of grapeshot, and five rounds of chain shot per gun. That was almost three thousand rounds for a single fifty- four- gun galleon. Replacing just the round shot in her shot lockers on a one- for- one basis would require the next best thing to twenty- two hundred shells.

Very good point Sounour.

We have been thinking of all naval combat as between (pre-Merlin) oar-powered galleys (where chain and bar shot is less useful) - ignoring the fact that some of the combat would have been against enemy merchant ships, where the ability to disable them intact would be incredibly useful.

And so while a majority of the ammo would have been solid shot, there would have been a small stock of bar and chain shot (as the Sounour has found).

jtg452 wrote:Bar and chain shot are designed to disable enemy ships. That makes them easier to board and capture.

The Charisans don't want or need to disable enemy ships. They want to destroy them because their capture is of no benefit. The ships themselves are inferior in a multitude of ways and their crews would be a security risk to hold, a strain on manpower to guard, AND a strain on the economy to feed, clothe and shelter.

The most effective way to destroy a wooden ship- or more accurately, it's crew- is to aim 'between the wind and the water' and put holes in the hull. With the advent of the exploding shell, it is even quicker.

It's been a while since I read Safehold, but I distinctly remember many Charisian galleons being built from timber that had not dried out sufficiently. Those ships were expected to have a short service life and soon had to sacrifice cannons to reduce weight and strain.

The Temple galleons used properly dried wood and although the guns that came with them are inferior, cannon can be swapped around with relative ease. If nothing else, they're also useful as troop and supply transports.

munroburton wrote:

jtg452 wrote:Bar and chain shot are designed to disable enemy ships. That makes them easier to board and capture.

The Charisans don't want or need to disable enemy ships. They want to destroy them because their capture is of no benefit. The ships themselves are inferior in a multitude of ways and their crews would be a security risk to hold, a strain on manpower to guard, AND a strain on the economy to feed, clothe and shelter.

The most effective way to destroy a wooden ship- or more accurately, it's crew- is to aim 'between the wind and the water' and put holes in the hull. With the advent of the exploding shell, it is even quicker.

It's been a while since I read Safehold, but I distinctly remember many Charisian galleons being built from timber that had not dried out sufficiently. Those ships were expected to have a short service life and soon had to sacrifice cannons to reduce weight and strain.

The Temple galleons used properly dried wood and although the guns that came with them are inferior, cannon can be swapped around with relative ease. If nothing else, they're also useful as troop and supply transports.

The only galleons built in haste were the first generation
war galleons. That was done in order to have them available in tine to meet the threat that Charis sensed was coming. IIRC, that amounted to roughly half of the thirty galleons that Cayleb set to sea with enroute to Armegeddon Reef where he intercepted the Dohlarians and Tarot. The other half of that original fleet were merchant conversions.

Afrer that crisis was over and the RCN continued its buildup, properly dried timber was used.

Don

Can't check, but I think you have it turned around: the first flight used up the seasoned wood on hand; everything after that had to be built with green wood. It takes 2-3 years to season lumber properly by air drying, so that's how far ahead you have to plan a naval building program. It wasn't until sometime after the Markovian Sea that they were able to start building sound ships again.

n7axw wrote:
The only galleons built in haste were the first generation
war galleons. That was done in order to have them available in tine to meet the threat that Charis sensed was coming. IIRC, that amounted to roughly half of the thirty galleons that Cayleb set to sea with enroute to Armegeddon Reef where he intercepted the Dohlarians and Tarot. The other half of that original fleet were merchant conversions.

Afrer that crisis was over and the RCN continued its buildup, properly dried timber was used.

Don