So, what about potato cannons?

SWM wrote:So how is this potato cannon better than existing Safehold cannons? It's a cannon. You're just using a different, less powerful, propellant.

It's not better. Once you start using gunpowder, it becomes a cannon with all the advantages and diadvantages.

However, There could be some advantage to an actual spud gun with the projectile powered by gas or compressed air. For one thing, without the explosive event characteristic to gunpowder, the things could be safer to use. Also they would be cheaper and easier to manufacture since they wouldn't need to withstand gunpowder.

Obviously they wouldn't have the range of cannon, but I could visualize them useful to infantry advancing on or defending a position.

Don

n7axw wrote:

SWM wrote:So how is this potato cannon better than existing Safehold cannons? It's a cannon. You're just using a different, less powerful, propellant.

It's not better. Once you start using gunpowder, it becomes a cannon with all the advantages and diadvantages.

However, There could be some advantage to an actual spud gun with the projectile powered by gas or compressed air. For one thing, without the explosive event characteristic to gunpowder, the things could be safer to use. Also they would be cheaper and easier to manufacture since they wouldn't need to withstand gunpowder.

Obviously they wouldn't have the range of cannon, but I could visualize them useful to infantry advancing on or defending a position.

Don

I'm afraid I still don't see the advantage. You can get the same effect (safer, cheaper, higher manufacturing tolerances) by simply using a smaller amount of propellant. Especially once you have advanced explosives that can be tightly controlled, what advantages does an air cannon have? You can replace the air cannon with a low-power explosive and still use a similar barrel, etc., can't you?

I wonder if we might see the equivalent of paint ball guns, some ammo for them are explosive, and the others are drug delivery methods.
ALso, the same tech could be used in spear and harpoon guns for oceon hunting.

SWM wrote:

I'm afraid I still don't see the advantage. You can get the same effect (safer, cheaper, higher manufacturing tolerances) by simply using a smaller amount of propellant. Especially once you have advanced explosives that can be tightly controlled, what advantages does an air cannon have? You can replace the air cannon with a low-power explosive and still use a similar barrel, etc., can't you?

There is logic in what you are saying. But as I look around to a counter, let's try this. Gunpowder gets its propulsion effect by the explosion which creates a quickly peaking pressure that forces the projectile out of the barrel.

By way of contrast, a spud gun you have the pressure before hand that does not involve heat. The propulsion is caused by the release of the pressure with the valve. While it is possible for both to cause an explosion, it seems to me that even when you are talking about equivalent force, the gunpowder demands a stronger, better made barrel due to the nature of the explosion.

My spudgun is made of pcv pipe. The only thing that is metal is the globe valve which contains the pressure. With a small projectile it is not uncommon to get 200 plus yards with just thirty pounds of pressure.

Now I know Safehold doesn't have pcv pipe. But they should be able to manufacture lighter barrels along with the containment chambers out of metal easily enough. And while we are on this kick which I don't seriously expect to see in the books, why not conjecture steam powered air compressors to pressurize a bunch of containment chambers before the battle?

As for whether or not there is really sufficient advantage to this to make it worthwhile to pursue, I am not prepared to say.

Don

n7axw wrote:

SWM wrote:

I'm afraid I still don't see the advantage. You can get the same effect (safer, cheaper, higher manufacturing tolerances) by simply using a smaller amount of propellant. Especially once you have advanced explosives that can be tightly controlled, what advantages does an air cannon have? You can replace the air cannon with a low-power explosive and still use a similar barrel, etc., can't you?

There is logic in what you are saying. But as I look around to a counter, let's try this. Gunpowder gets its propulsion effect by the explosion which creates a quickly peaking pressure that forces the projectile out of the barrel.

By way of contrast, a spud gun you have the pressure before hand that does not involve heat. The propulsion is caused by the release of the pressure with the valve. While it is possible for both to cause an explosion, it seems to me that even when you are talking about equivalent force, the gunpowder demands a stronger, better made barrel due to the nature of the explosion.

My spudgun is made of pcv pipe. The only thing that is metal is the globe valve which contains the pressure. With a small projectile it is not uncommon to get 200 plus yards with just thirty pounds of pressure.

Now I know Safehold doesn't have pcv pipe. But they should be able to manufacture lighter barrels along with the containment chambers out of metal easily enough. And while we are on this kick which I don't seriously expect to see in the books, why not conjecture steam powered air compressors to pressurize a bunch of containment chambers before the battle?

As for whether or not there is really sufficient advantage to this to make it worthwhile to pursue, I am not prepared to say.

Don

And using low pressure gas to throw a projectile is exactly how a modern smokeless powder mortar works. Gunpowder requires restraint to burn rapidly (its combustion rate is roughly proportional to pressure) but using a wad or rupture disk to restrain it works, once burnt, the gases generated can be used to throw larger objects than a bullet. Similar systems are found in grenade launcher attachments for rifles and in pretty much all ejection seats (which use a power cylinder filled with high pressure gas from a cartridge to throw the seat clear of the aircraft) amongst others. A similar system can be found in car airbag inflators.

Astelon wrote:I also suspect that most drinking alcohol will not suffice for propellant (have never tried it). Do they have, or can they make, other alcohols?

I'm not sure, but I think they use pure alcohol (or something close to pure) for medicinal purposes.

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Also, what's the point of using a spud gun again? If it's to conserve gunpowder, conserving gunpowder has not been an issue for the Church so far.

Conserving technical skills to produce new weapons yes. But producing actual gunpowder propellant has never been stated to be a problem for the Church.

evilauthor wrote:

Astelon wrote:I also suspect that most drinking alcohol will not suffice for propellant (have never tried it). Do they have, or can they make, other alcohols?

I'm not sure, but I think they use pure alcohol (or something close to pure) for medicinal purposes.

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Also, what's the point of using a spud gun again? If it's to conserve gunpowder, conserving gunpowder has not been an issue for the Church so far.

Conserving technical skills to produce new weapons yes. But producing actual gunpowder propellant has never been stated to be a problem for the Church.

A problem producing good gunpowder, maybe. Most of the potential gains have already been mentioned. But I'll add one more. Think about portability. The Temple has no answer at this time to Charis' portable angle guns. This might be a potential answer. It's at least worth thinking about.

Don

n7axw wrote:Think about portability. The Temple has no answer at this time to Charis' portable angle guns. This might be a potential answer. It's at least worth thinking about.

Don

Casks full of volatile LIQUID alcohol is somehow more portable than casks of gunpowder? God help you if you spring a leak in the field... or in the barges and wagons tasked with transporting this liquid ammo to the front.

evilauthor wrote:

n7axw wrote:Think about portability. The Temple has no answer at this time to Charis' portable angle guns. This might be a potential answer. It's at least worth thinking about.

Don

Casks full of volatile LIQUID alcohol is somehow more portable than casks of gunpowder? God help you if you spring a leak in the field... or in the barges and wagons tasked with transporting this liquid ammo to the front.

Also alcohol (especially pure alcohol) is going to out-gas and dissipate in the barrels. I wouldn't want to carry them in any heat or have them near the camp.

evilauthor wrote:

n7axw wrote:Think about portability. The Temple has no answer at this time to Charis' portable angle guns. This might be a potential answer. It's at least worth thinking about.

Don

Casks full of volatile LIQUID alcohol is somehow more portable than casks of gunpowder? God help you if you spring a leak in the field... or in the barges and wagons tasked with transporting this liquid ammo to the front.

I haven't proposed liquid alcohol as a solution... My notion was compressed air which would involve transporting the compressors or perhaps the compressed canisters. Not neccessarily practical either since we don't know that the church has the tech to manufacture compressors or even to compress air.

So maybe alcohol is a better idea. Simply start shipping Seijin Kohdy's premium whiskey.

Don