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Effect of the Interdict on Temple Loyalists in EoC?

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Re: Effect of the Interdict on Temple Loyalists in EoC?
Post by FreeTrav   » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:37 pm

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ayg wrote:If Charis wins any peace treaty would probably say that those sacraments are valid. If Charis loses, the baby in your example is likely to be killed with all the other babies, so it won't matter if it's legitimate or not.

While it's quite clear that the Emperor and the Archbishop - or perhaps I should say the Crown and the Cap - both take cognizance in their respective spheres of the political needs of the other, it appears to me that in the general case, the Cap leaves secular governance to the Crown, and vice-versa. While I can see the Church of Charis ultimately acknowledging the validity of Temple Loyalist sacraments, I'm not sure I see the Crown imposing anything beyond freedom of conscience on defeated enemies - that is, a defeated (e.g.) Desnair would be required to allow and acknowledge the Church of Charis, but I can't really see them saying that the CoGA in Desnair must accept the validity of sacraments performed by Loyalist clergy in the EoC during the period of the Interdict. Nor can I see them imposing a requirement that the CoGA in Desnair accept (or declare) that the Interdict is, and always was, null and void. Perhaps there might eventually be a negotiated rapprochement between the Church of Charis and the Church of God Awaiting, much as there has been (more or less) between the Church of England (and through it, the other Churches of the Anglican Communion) and the Roman Catholic Church, but even that rapprochement doesn't erase all the lines...
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Re: Effect of the Interdict on Temple Loyalists in EoC?
Post by ayg   » Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:29 pm

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FreeTrav: You may be right. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Trying to understand religion and religious fanatics gives me a headache.
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Re: Effect of the Interdict on Temple Loyalists in EoC?
Post by McGuiness   » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:23 pm

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This thread raises some points that hadn't occurred to me - I always thought that after the Interdict was declared, the CoGA clergy in the EoC still had the stamp of approval of Mother Church to conduct all church activities as usual, and that it was only the CoC that was interdicted. (Duh, how could the CoGA interdict the CoC?) :oops:

Wow... I can't believe I missed the point that the CoGA itself was interdicted in the EoC. Perhaps it was the text saying roughly "in Charis things went on as usual, baptisms, marriages, etc. with the clergy blithely ignoring the edicts coming out of Zion" that caused me to miss that only the the clergy of the CoGA was forbidden to perform any religious rituals for the members of its flocks. The CoC not only ignored the Interdict, it denied the authority of the vicars who declared it.

Let me raise the point that after it's revealed that the CoGA is an abomination created by insane megalomaniacs to imprison humanity forever, those who accept the truth aren't going to care about any seals of approval they received or didn't receive from a false religion. Granted, everyone isn't going to accept the Big Reveal, but in the long run the Big Lie will be acknowledged as fact, and marriages for example, even those with a religious component included, will also have a secular requirement, such as a marriage license and either a secular or a religious authority conducting the wedding. Funerals, christenings, baptisms etc. are purely religious events, other than the legal requirements of a birth certificate and a death certificate being generated due to the event, and those only where legally required by the state.

In the long run, this thread is moot, since both the CoGA and the CoC will cease to exist. The state will take on a bit more responsibility, and whatever religions arise after the Big Reveal (which certainly won't be the CoGA!) will administer to the spiritual requirements of those who feel the need for them.
Last edited by McGuiness on Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Effect of the Interdict on Temple Loyalists in EoC?
Post by n7axw   » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:25 pm

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In a certain sense, the COGA wasn't interdicted in the EOC. To be sure Zion is no longer allowed to enforce its authority in its lands. But the Temple Loyalists are allowed to worship in their own churches with their own priests.

It is the height of irony that TL priests must now choose whether or not to obey the Temple, and if they do they deny the sacraments to the Temple's most loyal adherents.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Effect of the Interdict on Temple Loyalists in EoC?
Post by McGuiness   » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:37 pm

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n7axw wrote:In a certain sense, the COGA wasn't interdicted in the EOC. To be sure Zion is no longer allowed to enforce its authority in its lands. But the Temple Loyalists are allowed to worship in their own churches with their own priests.

It is the height of irony that TL priests must now choose whether or not to obey the Temple, and if they do they deny the sacraments to the Temple's most loyal adherents.

Don
Since the Interdict was designed for punishing a nation which didn't knuckle under to the authorities of the only church on Safehold, the fact that the CoC sprouted into existence and was accepted by such a large percentage of the EoC made the Interdict utterly impotent there - and counterproductive.

It's a pity the idiots in Zion were completely unable to realize that the game had changed, and that one of its major tools would only punish its most staunch supporters...

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Effect of the Interdict on Temple Loyalists in EoC?
Post by Annachie   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:31 am

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Simply put, any temple loyalist priests still conducting services in the interdicted parts of the EOC are guilty of heresy and will be put to the punishment of Schueller (sp?). Any services carried out by those priests never happened.
From the TL point of view it can be no other way.
I'm just waiting for one of those TL priests in the EoC to be captured.
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Re: Effect of the Interdict on Temple Loyalists in EoC?
Post by n7axw   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:47 pm

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Annachie wrote:Simply put, any temple loyalist priests still conducting services in the interdicted parts of the EOC are guilty of heresy and will be put to the punishment of Schueller (sp?). Any services carried out by those priests never happened.
From the TL point of view it can be no other way.
I'm just waiting for one of those TL priests in the EoC to be captured.


Not really much chance of it happening...unless someone cracked such a priest over the head, smuggled him out of Charis and shipped him off to Zion for execution. I guess less likely things have happened, but the probability of this would be pretty low... :?

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Effect of the Interdict on Temple Loyalists in EoC?
Post by Starsaber   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:19 pm

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Annachie wrote:Simply put, any temple loyalist priests still conducting services in the interdicted parts of the EOC are guilty of heresy and will be put to the punishment of Schueller (sp?). Any services carried out by those priests never happened.
From the TL point of view it can be no other way.
I'm just waiting for one of those TL priests in the EoC to be captured.


As far as Clyntahn is concerned, there aren't any Temple Loyalists in Charis.
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Re: Effect of the Interdict on Temple Loyalists in EoC?
Post by Earldrygulch   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:49 pm

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FreeTrav wrote:
ayg wrote:Imore or less) between the Church of England (and through it, the other Churches of the Anglican Communion) and the Roman Catholic Church, but even that rapprochement doesn't erase all the lines...


To show how convoluted it can, and has gotten: the Angican Church and the Evangelical Luteran Church participate in each others ordination of both pastors and bishops. If A is equal to B and B is equal to C is A equal to C? Somehow, in religion, I doubt that works. Also, many Anglican priests and some bishops, not to mention in the ELCA, are women. These are real issues that echo on Safehold.

I suspect there is a line drawn there as well. My point is that the COC and the COGA are, while the issue is in doubtt, NOT addressing the issue. I expect that, if the COGA wins, the will be turning a blind eye to the TLs. If a theologian wants to get to a particular result, they have little trouble getting there. John Calvin was a practicing attorney and Martin Luther was a law school drop out.

I expect that the COA wil continue post war, dropping the anti tech parts and will become much like the Anglican/ELCA are in the US. Remember what was said about cracks and God early in the series.
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Re: Effect of the Interdict on Temple Loyalists in EoC?
Post by rakenan   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:35 pm

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Starsaber wrote:
Annachie wrote:Simply put, any temple loyalist priests still conducting services in the interdicted parts of the EOC are guilty of heresy and will be put to the punishment of Schueller (sp?). Any services carried out by those priests never happened.
From the TL point of view it can be no other way.
I'm just waiting for one of those TL priests in the EoC to be captured.


As far as Clyntahn is concerned, there aren't any Temple Loyalists in Charis.


You're forgetting the probably non-zero number of Rakurai agents in Charis still actively conducting or attempting to conduct operations. I think Clyntahn would consider them to be Temple Loyalists.
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