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Declaration of Rights/Emancipation Proclamation

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Re: Declaration of Rights/Emancipation Proclamation
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:05 pm

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SWM wrote:
Glowfish wrote:Why you insist in transform Charis in the United States?

Can they try to be original, free but different?

Is a cliche in so many books, is like no country can be free, happy, bla bla bla if it doesn't imitate the US.

This isn't about making Charis into the United States. The U.S. is not the only country in the world or in history that has a declaration of basic rights and has outlawed slavery.

In point of fact the United Nations has a Universal Declaration of Human Rights, even if a number of the member nations pay it no never mind.
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Re: Declaration of Rights/Emancipation Proclamation
Post by n7axw   » Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:34 pm

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SWM wrote:
Glowfish wrote:Why you insist in transform Charis in the United States?

Can they try to be original, free but different?

Is a cliche in so many books, is like no country can be free, happy, bla bla bla if it doesn't imitate the US.

This isn't about making Charis into the United States. The U.S. is not the only country in the world or in history that has a declaration of basic rights and has outlawed slavery.


I believe that it was the Brits who deserve the credit as pioneers here, having outlawed slavery, or at least the slave trade in the 1820s as a result of the efforts of Bihop Wilberforcs.

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Re: Declaration of Rights/Emancipation Proclamation
Post by Highjohn   » Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:51 pm

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Yes, the British do get the credit for being the first nation to take a position against all slavery(owning of human beings(Even those funny looking foreigners)). So other nation took stands against slavery, but as far as I can tell those positions were more "Don't enslave us" than "Don't enslave anyone". Also the British took an active stance against slavery in some cases even going so far as to send warships.


On the subject of some sort of Emancipation Proclamation. Two things.
One: Slavery isn't a huge issue. there doesn't seem to be international trade in slaves or any large(international or national) movements against it on Safehold. There may be but RFC hasn't mentioned them. The slavery issue has been a minor plot point. An important one which impacts on many points in the story(spies in the inquisition anyone?). But minor.

Two: RFC is already working towards such a proclamation(I think we will see one in HFQ). It was mention in a conversation between Caleyb and Nynian. On the subject of the documents she sent to Charis. This isn't about slavery but given the whole basis of the war(Religious authority, not slavery like the American Civil War) that would make a much better proclamation.


Historical Note: For those of you without a much historical knowledge about slavery, I would suggest looking up the Barbary States. For those of you who are Americans I suggest you look up the first war the United States of America fought.(Note the name).

Emancipation Proclamation Note: Congress beat Lincoln to the punch of that one.
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Re: Declaration of Rights/Emancipation Proclamation
Post by dwileye13   » Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 pm

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Glowfish wrote:Why you insist in transform Charis in the United States?

Can they try to be original, free but different?

Is a cliche in so many books, is like no country can be free, happy, bla bla bla if it doesn't imitate the US.


The three documents I mentioned are the true basis for giving individuals rights that supercede the government. One was English and the other two were US but they all are the basis for Human Rights being more important than Governments and Rulers.

The Bill of Rights is greater than the Government of the US and the Declaration of Independence gives all mankind the Right to end Injustice imposed by any government upon the basic right of mankind.

It is not transforming anything into the USA - just recognizing the incredible brilliance of the founders of the USA.

The American Government is subject to all those philosophies in the Magna Carta, The Declaration of Independence and must Protect those in the Bill of Rights. That Government is not perfect and has strayed from the path intended but the means to regain control and change it are in the design of those documents and are the obligation of The citizenry.

Remember - a man without a gun is a subject of the government while a man with a gun is a citizen. That is why the right to Militia is protected in the Bill of Rights.
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Re: Declaration of Rights/Emancipation Proclamation
Post by SYED   » Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:16 am

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the knowledger of such a declaration would spread to the mainland, and cause strife for the bad guys.
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Re: Declaration of Rights/Emancipation Proclamation
Post by pokermind   » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:31 am

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SYED wrote:the knowledger of such a declaration would spread to the mainland, and cause strife for the bad guys.


Just what Abraham Lincoln did during the American Civil War. Slavery in the slave states adhering to the Union was not touched until the war was over by the 13th amendment.

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Re: Declaration of Rights/Emancipation Proclamation
Post by McGuiness   » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:32 am

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Highjohn wrote: SNIP
Two things.
One: Slavery isn't a huge issue. there doesn't seem to be international trade in slaves or any large(international or national) movements against it on Safehold. There may be but RFC hasn't mentioned them. The slavery issue has been a minor plot point. An important one which impacts on many points in the story(spies in the inquisition anyone?). But minor.

Two: RFC is already working towards such a proclamation(I think we will see one in HFQ). It was mention in a conversation between Caleyb and Nynian. On the subject of the documents she sent to Charis. This isn't about slavery but given the whole basis of the war(Religious authority, not slavery like the American Civil War) that would make a much better proclamation.
I agree that there doesn't appear to be any organized slave trade on Safehold that we've heard of, but it seems fairly clear that the degree of serfdom or slavery, call it what you will, is mostly a national issue. The clergy in Harchong indoctrinate the serfs to accept that God has put them in a state of servitude during their years of "school" instead of teaching them to read and write. I suspect that the clergy in Desnair does pretty much the same thing with the slaves there. Despite the reliability of Harchong from Clyntahn's perspective, there have been numerous slave rebellions in the past, and were a reformist movement to take root there, the mother of all slave revolts could result - especially if the defeated war veterans are allowed to return home, or fight their way back.

Thus a declaration from the CoC that God never intended for his children to be enslaved by one another (as opposed to having national rulers and governments to enforce laws enabling men to live in peace in society) would appeal to the enslaved masses. The fact that Charis has outlawed serfdom or restricting people to labor on the land on which they were born, (which is done in the Temple Lands) as well as the outright slavery practiced in Desnair should serve as a beacon to the rest of the world - but the downtrodden of the mainland nations need to be told about it. OWL can post broadsheets everywhere, but illiterate people can't read them, and I suspect it will become a capital crime to be caught reading those broadsheets to serfs or slaves.

In regards to a religious declaration, I suspect you're referring to the doctrinal change that the Grand Vicar is infallible and speaks with the voice of God, which was introduced centuries ago but was never part of the Writ. Making that public would help if people believed it, since the unpopularity of the Go4 who control the Grand Vicar may have already led to general dissatisfaction with the war - provided the general populace is allowed to find out the truth of the CoGA's defeats, which is doubtful. (Minus OWL's broadsheets of course.)

Outing the perversions of the numerous vicars who Clyntahn has under his thumb through blackmail (and terror of torture and execution at this point) would raise general outrage against the corruption of the vicarate, and if widely accepted, would also reduce support for the war effort. Unfortunately, that's a big if. Most of the mainland population isn't likely to believe the words of heretics and excommunicates, especially when the heretics are denouncing the leadership of the CoGA. Temple Loyalists will rally to what they know rather than admit the obvious - and it's not healthy to be a reformist in the mainland realms.

It's already widely known among the soldiers of the CoGA that they have the option to surrender because the allies have repudiated the use of the Question and the Punishment of Schueler. Unfortunately, the sadists who fill the ranks of the Inquisition rather enjoy torturing prisoners - and what sort of sick mind do you have to possess to do that sort of thing to you fellow man, even if you are deluded into believing that you are saving their souls?

Putting captured allied prisoners to the Punishment has several side effects that Clyntahn obviously didn't foresee: allied forces will fight to the last man rather than surrender, which gets a lot more of his soldiers killed, the CoC has declared open season on the Inquisition, and many of the soldiers of the CoGA and the people who survive the Inquisition's purges are sick to death of the carnage inflicted in the name of God and the archangels. Some of his troops who have witnessed these atrocities are likely questioning their faith. We haven't had much textev of it, but it's happening. Clyntahn's tactics are fanning the flames of the Reformist movement like never before.

Unfortunately, it's difficult for CoGA troops to surrender if an inquisitor is with them, so there's undoubtedly been a lot of priests from the Order of Schueler who were somehow killed by "enemy gunfire" striking them from behind! Expect much more of that in the battles to come. The armies of the CoGA may end up killing more inquisitors than the allies ever do. Note that when DE managed to capture thousands of enemy soldiers, there were only 50 surviving inquisitors whose heads ended up on stakes near the enemy lines... :twisted:

Ok, maybe that's just the number of heads that DE allowed his scout snipers to impale on stakes to destroy enemy morale. He undoubtedly did enforce EoC policy and have all the captured inquisitors executed though. :D

I'm not sure if a religious declaration denouncing the infallibility of the Grand Vicar while cataloging the perversions of vicars by name will have much effect, other than chasing those vicars into hiding and destroying their moral authority. It certainly won't hurt the allied cause, so I'm all for it! ;)

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Re: Declaration of Rights/Emancipation Proclamation
Post by Keith_w   » Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:44 am

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dwileye13 wrote:Remember - a man without a gun is a subject of the government while a man with a gun is a citizen. That is why the right to Militia is protected in the Bill of Rights.

That is a very American point of view, and to be honest, considering all the crap that goes on there, not a particularly accurate one.
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Re: Declaration of Rights/Emancipation Proclamation
Post by dwileye13   » Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:50 am

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Keith_w wrote:
dwileye13 wrote:Remember - a man without a gun is a subject of the government while a man with a gun is a citizen. That is why the right to Militia is protected in the Bill of Rights.

That is a very American point of view, and to be honest, considering all the crap that goes on there, not a particularly accurate one.


10-4 it is an American POV. It doesn't make it less true.
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Re: Declaration of Rights/Emancipation Proclamation
Post by dwileye13   » Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:57 am

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Keith_w wrote:
dwileye13 wrote:Remember - a man without a gun is a subject of the government while a man with a gun is a citizen. That is why the right to Militia is protected in the Bill of Rights.

That is a very American point of view, and to be honest, considering all the crap that goes on there, not a particularly accurate one.


Admittably yes - an American POV, but that doesn't make it less true. My apologies for straying from the Thread
The topic is using MEMEs from the Great Documents to subvert the tyrannical governments of Safehold, which includes the CoGA.

Perhaps RFC is trending that way. I think it would be a way to start the reformation of the slave/serf society.

How can anyone say there is no slave trafficing on Safehold when a half million (at least) slaves were rounded up an given to the church to be cannon fodder?
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