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Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?

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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:41 pm

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Randomiser wrote:
TN4994 wrote:
The Stirling engine!!!
Why do we develop one technology over another.
Cost, and ease of manufacture and maintenance are a few of the reasons.
Another is generating interest in one over the other.
Safehold has the Prohibitions interfering with technological development as well.
I wonder if we could sneak a hand-crank flashlight (torch) past an inquisitor (for a price).

Henry Brown wrote:Regarding the hand-crank flashlight idea, you COULD make the argument that it is muscle powered. Which is allowable. I realize that this is a bit of a stretch in the interpretation. But is it really more of a stretch than the argument Paityr Wylsynn put forth when he ruled that steam was permissible under the proscriptions?


Yes! And they won't be producing tungsten filament bulbs any time soon either.

And with a little bit of help from Merlin, they can go directly to the Light Emitting Diode, and skip the tungsten and argon altogether.
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by AirTech   » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:07 am

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Henry Brown wrote:
Regarding the hand-crank flashlight idea, you COULD make the argument that it is muscle powered. Which is allowable. I realize that this is a bit of a stretch in the interpretation. But is it really more of a stretch than the argument Paityr Wylsynn put forth when he ruled that steam was permissible under the proscriptions?


The other argument is on the if its isn't broke, why fix it - a kerosene or carbide light will work for most cases, and hydrogen where more extreme light levels are required (see Limelight). (Establishing a steady consumption of kerosene is important to developing a petrochemical industry).
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by AirTech   » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:10 am

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Belial666 wrote:I was considering how Safehold could develop the following technologies without use of the two crucial techs of the 20th century;

1) Automobiles, and by extension armored vehicles.
2) Submarines.
3) Domestic appliances.
4) Airplanes.


Beyond the political/theological issues, Safehold tech base would need to mature a lot more before internal combustion was introduced. However, it doesn't need to - becauce Charis' steelworks are already producing high quality steel and Charis has experience with renewable energy sources and steam engines.

I believe the answer to be compressed air energy storage;


a) Compressed air energy storage compares favorably to metal-acid batteries to energy density, ease of manufacture, recycleability and base materials. It basically needs quality steel to be made into high-pressure containers, something Charis is essentially already going for with its artillery manufacture.

b) Charis already knows how to make compressed-air engines since they are basically steam engines without combustion chambers.

c) Once compressed air is available, liquid oxygen for use in submarines is easy to make. This would allow burning of fuel in a sub while submerged.

d) For airplanes, liquid oxygen and hydrogen is usable both in conventional engines and as rocket fuel. Steel tanks of compressed air would be too heavy for airplane use except in quite brief flights, however Safehold has steel thistle silk, which is comparable to artificial fibers in strength. Containers of what is essentially a Kevlar analog would be light enough to power even an air-turbine aircraft.


High pressure water was reticulated around most major cities in the late 1800's to power lifts and escalators. (The underground pipes got reused in the 1990's to run fiber optics...). High pressure hydraulics could run most home appliances quite easily (other than the lights...).
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by Cheopis   » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:31 am

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AirTech wrote:High pressure water was reticulated around most major cities in the late 1800's to power lifts and escalators. (The underground pipes got reused in the 1990's to run fiber optics...). High pressure hydraulics could run most home appliances quite easily (other than the lights...).


Links? I knew about steam pipes in cities, I didn't know about high pressure water pipes. This seems fascinating.
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:13 am

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AirTech wrote:
Henry Brown wrote:
Regarding the hand-crank flashlight idea, you COULD make the argument that it is muscle powered. Which is allowable. I realize that this is a bit of a stretch in the interpretation. But is it really more of a stretch than the argument Paityr Wylsynn put forth when he ruled that steam was permissible under the proscriptions?


The other argument is on the if its isn't broke, why fix it - a kerosene or carbide light will work for most cases, and hydrogen where more extreme light levels are required (see Limelight). (Establishing a steady consumption of kerosene is important to developing a petrochemical industry).

In point of fact, it was the use of kerosene for lighting that effectively got the petroleum industry running in this country. Standard Oil got its start producing lighting oil and by improvements in the refining process was able to produce a standard consistency for its kerosene that helped prevent flash fires due to gasoline contaminating the kerosene. This of course led to John D Rockefeller having a lot of excess gasoline that had to be disposed of either by burning it off, or finding a use for it. He pushed for the development of small internal combustion engines for minor tasks like running pumps, etc, and then someone else got the bright idea of hooking it up to a wagon, and then ...
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by fleadermouse   » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:43 pm

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Liquid Oxygen is easy to make?????

It takes a lot more than a basic compressor to make significant quantities of LOx

The materials/metallurgical problems associated with cryogenic temps make high temp issues look relaxed

There is a reason that we do not use LOx / LH2 as common fuels yet
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by Draken   » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:14 pm

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So what about using kerosene or other light fraction of oil as fuel, when Merlin will show them the most efficient way to get cracking running, oil shouldn't be a very big problem.
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by TN4994   » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:42 pm

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Draken wrote:So what about using kerosene or other light fraction of oil as fuel, when Merlin will show them the most efficient way to get cracking running, oil shouldn't be a very big problem.

It was written about kraken oil for lamps, and firevine oil for lubricants.
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:51 pm

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TN4994 wrote:
Draken wrote:So what about using kerosene or other light fraction of oil as fuel, when Merlin will show them the most efficient way to get cracking running, oil shouldn't be a very big problem.

It was written about kraken oil for lamps, and firevine oil for lubricants.

You can use alcohol for fuel. The major problem is an oxidant, and LOx is nasty stuff to have to fool around with. It requires major engineering effort to make and store, and while it can be done without electricity, doing it without electricity at least triples or quadruples the effort and risk. Do we need to go into why we aren't going to be using electricity just yet?
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The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Advanced tech without electricity/internal combustion?
Post by Belial666   » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:49 am

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Once you got liquid air, LOx is as easy as opening the container and letting the nitrogen boil off. We did that in the university. We did not get pure LOx but we did get a good enough mixture to be usable as oxidant. So the problem is essentially getting liquid air, which was done back in 1883.




Any engineering problem is an issue of how many man-hours you put into it, once the base tech is discovered and refined. Have a high enough production and cost is going to fall rapidly because in the modern world "cost" is merely a function of supply vs demand rather than objective technological difficulties.
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