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The Moon and the Lizard.

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: The Moon and the Lizard.
Post by Tanstaafl   » Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:33 pm

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Philip Stanley wrote:Why does Tellesberg have a significant tide? Isn't Howell Bay isolated from the Anvil, or any other of the major seas of Safehold by the relatively narrow Throat. I would expect Howell Bay to have almost no tide, being so relatively small that no tidal oscillation could build up in there (think about the Mediterranean Sea on Earth).
Also, if my theory above is true, and there is almost no tide in Howell Bay, then the Throat, connecting it to the Sea of Charis and beyond, where there are major tides, should be subject to major tidal currents four times a day (think about the Straights of Gibraltar). These rips have never been mentioned in any of the volumes so far.
Any one care to comment?


I agree that there should be no tide in Howell Bay. But RFC has stated that ships leaving Tellersberg do it by high tide. The parting scene in book 2 when Cayleb leaves Sharlayan behind in Tellersberg.


Safehold 02 - By Schism Rent Asunder. wrote:
The line-tenders started drawing the bosun's chair down to the deck for her, and she managed not to grimace. The thought of being lifted over the side and lowered to the cutter on a line like a parcel scarcely seemed dignified, but it was undoubtedly better than trying to manage her skirts while clambering down the battens nailed to the ship's side. It would be more modest, at any rate, and she was far less likely to find herself inadvertently and unexpectedly soaked. And, anyway, it wasn't like—

Her thoughts were abruptly interrupted as Cayleb's arms went around her. Her eyes widened in astonishment, but that was all she had time for before she found herself being kissed—ruthlessly, energetically, and delightfully competently—in front of the entire watching fleet.

For one heartbeat, sheer surprise held her stiff and unresponsive in his arms. But only for a heartbeat. It was, of course, a flagrant and scandalous breach of all proper rules of decorum, she thought as she melted into his embrace, not to mention the way it violated etiquette, protocol, and common decency, and she couldn't have cared less.

For a moment, everyone else seemed equally dumbfounded by the abrupt departure from the occasion's planned, dignified choreography, but then the cheers began again—different cheers, this time. Cheers that rippled with laughter and were punctuated by clapping hands and whistles of encouragement. Sharleyan would recall that later, treasure the pleasure—pleasure for Cayleb and for her—implicit in those cheers, those whistles, that clapping. At the moment, it scarcely registered. Her mind was on other things entirely.

It was a long, ardent, and very thorough kiss. Cayleb was a methodical man, and he took the time to do it right. Finally, however—due to a simple lack of air, no doubt—he straightened once more, smiling down at her through the whistles and stamping feet. Beyond him, she saw Earl Lock Island, Commodore Manthyr, and Captain Athrawes trying very hard not to grin like schoolboys, and the delighted laughter around her redoubled as she shook her finger under her husband's nose.

"Now you've gone and proven what a lewd, uncultured lout you are!" she scolded, her eyes sparkling. "I can't believe you did something that improper in front of everyone! Don't you realize how you've violated protocol?!"

"Damn protocol," he told her unrepentantly and reached out to touch the side of her face with his right hand while his left steadied the descending bosun's chair for her. His fingers were feather-gentle on her cheek, moving caressingly, and his eyes glowed. "That was fun, and I intend to do it again . . . often. But for today, if we don't get you into this chair and off this ship, we're all going to miss the tide, and then we'll probably have an outright rebellion on our hands."

"I know."


And there are more references about the tides in Tellersberg in the books. But this is the nicest. :-)
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Re: The Moon and the Lizard.
Post by SWM   » Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:32 pm

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Perhaps he meant they would miss the tide at the Throat?
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Re: The Moon and the Lizard.
Post by Tanstaafl   » Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:48 pm

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SWM wrote:Perhaps he meant they would miss the tide at the Throat?


The Throat is 2000km from Tellesburg. Too far for a sailing vessel to plan its arrival that accurately.

No, RFC has decided that there are tides, so there are tides. Which means a massive moon close by.
...
The abstinents are right,
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Re: The Moon and the Lizard.
Post by iranuke   » Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:21 pm

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With a connection to the World Ocean (the Throat), the tides in Howell Bay will be the same as the rest of the ocean. On a rising tide the flow thru the Throat will allow the level of Howell Bay to rise with the rest of the ocean, but the flow thru the throat my be quite fierce. Every thing will act in reverse on a lowering tide. Water will ALWAYS seek its own level.
Philip Stanley wrote:Why does Tellesberg have a significant tide? Isn't Howell Bay isolated from the Anvil, or any other of the major seas of Safehold by the relatively narrow Throat. I would expect Howell Bay to have almost no tide, being so relatively small that no tidal oscillation could build up in there (think about the Mediterranean Sea on Earth).
Also, if my theory above is true, and there is almost no tide in Howell Bay, then the Throat, connecting it to the Sea of Charis and beyond, where there are major tides, should be subject to major tidal currents four times a day (think about the Straights of Gibraltar). These rips have never been mentioned in any of the volumes so far.
Any one care to comment?
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Re: The Moon and the Lizard.
Post by saber964   » Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:40 pm

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A note on Earth tides. It basically depends on where you are on this planet. In some areas of the world they have negligible tide and in other areas it dramatic to say the least. According to NOAA the average world wide tidal level is about 2 ft.

Bay of Fundy Can 56 ft
Ungava Bay Can 55 ft
King Sound WAus 43 ft
Severn Estuary Eng 49 ft

Midway Island 6-8 in
Solomon Islands 8-12in

Also an advantage of tides is speed, You want to sail with the tide instead of against the tide. With the right wind conditions and the wrong tide you could literally sail backwards or at a stand still.
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Re: The Moon and the Lizard.
Post by n7axw   » Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:43 pm

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saber964 wrote:A note on Earth tides. It basically depends on where you are on this planet. In some areas of the world they have negligible tide and in other areas it dramatic to say the least. According to NOAA the average world wide tidal level is about 2 ft.

Bay of Fundy Can 56 ft
Ungava Bay Can 55 ft
King Sound WAus 43 ft
Severn Estuary Eng 49 ft

Midway Island 6-8 in
Solomon Islands 8-12in

Also an advantage of tides is speed, You want to sail with the tide instead of against the tide. With the right wind conditions and the wrong tide you could literally sail backwards or at a stand still.


Hi Sabre964

Wouldn't it be true that the larger the body of water, the smaller the rise in tide?

Don
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Re: The Moon and the Lizard.
Post by saber964   » Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:58 pm

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n7axw wrote:
saber964 wrote:A note on Earth tides. It basically depends on where you are on this planet. In some areas of the world they have negligible tide and in other areas it dramatic to say the least. According to NOAA the average world wide tidal level is about 2 ft.

Bay of Fundy Can 56 ft
Ungava Bay Can 55 ft
King Sound WAus 43 ft
Severn Estuary Eng 49 ft

Midway Island 6-8 in
Solomon Islands 8-12in

Also an advantage of tides is speed, You want to sail with the tide instead of against the tide. With the right wind conditions and the wrong tide you could literally sail backwards or at a stand still.


Hi Saber964

Wouldn't it be true that the larger the body of water, the smaller the rise in tide?

Don

Yes and no, it depends on where in the world you are at. The Pacific has generally lower tides Than the rest of the world but can have some extreme tides

Upper Gulf of California 30-40 ft
Queensland Aus 6-33 ft
Inchon Korea 35 ft
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Re: The Moon and the Lizard.
Post by EdThomas   » Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:36 pm

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saber964 wrote:SNIP
Don

Yes and no, it depends on where in the world you are at. The Pacific has generally lower tides Than the rest of the world but can have some extreme tides

Upper Gulf of California 30-40 ft
Queensland Aus 6-33 ft
Inchon Korea 35 ft[/quote]
The variation over geographical distance can vary tremendously too. We sail mid-coast Maine which is just several hundred miles west and south of the Bay of Fundy and we experience much smaller 10 -12 ft tides.

I've never heard of a satellite's albedo having any impact on tide though.
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Re: The Moon and the Lizard.
Post by EdThomas   » Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:31 pm

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A few more words on what tide is and is not. A portion of a reply of mine in Alverez and Thirsk
Tide is the regular rise and fall of ocean waters caused by the gravitational pull of the moon. The depths shown on nautical charts (sailors refer to maps as charts )are all given at a specific time in the tide cycle, usually either at high tide or low tide. E,g, on a “low tide” chart, the depth shown is the only time the water is actually that deep. At all other times the depth is greater at that spot. For an area with a 15 ft tide, the depth of water shown as a 10 ft spot on the chart will be 25 ft at high tide.

Tide is not current. Configuration of the land and sea bottom creates what are referred to by landsmen as “tidal” currents. Open the map and look at Schwei Bay. Note the narrow entrance (Schweimount Passage), and the 2 very narrow spots south of the entrance. Assume a tide of 15'. When the tide is rising, the level of the entire bay will be moving to a level 15ft higher. The reverse flow of the ebbing tide will bring the level back to 10 ft at our spot, The "tidal current” is the flow of water into and out of embayments on the coast. As with pipes and hoses, the pressure increases as the size of the hose decreases for a constant amount of water. The speed of the water flowing in or out (the current)will increase at narrow spots. Schwei Passage is going to be a wild place with the whole Bay passing through there twice every tide cycle. The entrance to the Bay of Bess will experience a lot of “tidal” action as the tide rises and falls.
Another tide wrinkle. The flow of water in and out of a bay is not constant. My sailing area, the mid-Maine coast, has a 12 hour tide cycle. Staying with our 15' tide, you might think that in the 6 hour period from low to high and high to low, that 1/6th of the water will move in or out in each hour. This is not the case. We use the "rule of 12ths to figure flow amount for any given time in the cycle. Hours 1 and 6 each have 1/12th of the flow. Hours 2 and 5 each have 2/12ths. Hours 3 and 4, each have 3/12ths. Half the total amount of water moves in the middle two hours which gives the most "current".
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Re: The Moon and the Lizard.
Post by Philip Stanley   » Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:54 pm

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The point I was trying to make earlier in this post is that the throat is so narrow, relative to the enormous volume of Howell Bay, that not enough water can flow in during high tide on the Charis Sea, or out during low tide on the Charis sea, to change the level of Howell bay by more than an inch or two. Hence, no significant tide in Howell Bay!
However, if the omnipotent Jogger with Stalked Vegetables chooses to assert that significant tides occur in Tellesberg, who are we to question him. We are obviously deficient in our understanding of the dynamics of tides, ALAS!
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