The Howard Subcontinent and Logistics

XofDallas wrote:

bigrunt wrote:I was looking at the map of the Salthar canal
Don

Where are the maps for this? I've been looking all over for a decent cache of maps that can actually be easily accessed.

Try looking in the Pearls of Weber. Lots of good info there including maps.

jgnfld wrote:

XofDallas wrote:...
8. I'd love to see Thirsk come over to the ICN. He won't unless his family is rescued. I'm not sure that's possible but I can hope.

This is my first post here - please be gentle!

Welcome.

I don't think Thirsk can just walk in like White Ford/Sharpefield/Jahras, etc. after giving away his prisoners to the Inquisition. Even if he had no choice. Just too much bad blood there.

He might be allowed to live, but I doubt he'd be allowed to live in complete freedom or to serve as anything other than an advisor. Not without clear Royal dispensation that would cost the Crown some level of support.

Maybe Merlin can infect him with nanobots, record/kill him, and then add him to Nahrman's VI. That might work. But that seems more than a little far-fetched!

Thirsk will not get off scot free on what happened to the prisoners. Nor should he. But at the same time, judging from some of the conversations, Charis knows who was REALLY responsible and that Thirsk couldn't have stopped it. Stepping in front of the bus would only have gotten him creamed and the inquisition would have gotten the prisoners anyway.

Don

XofDallas wrote:

bigrunt wrote:I was looking at the map of the Salthar canal
Don

Where are the maps for this? I've been looking all over for a decent cache of maps that can actually be easily accessed.

infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Safehold/338/0

Looking at the map (thanks!), it looks like the optimal situation would be for the ICA/ICN to take the Shalthar Canal by stealth, but then to secure the land south of the Canal.

The map shows hilly areas at the narrowest point of the isthmus. If the hills are impassable, or merely difficult terrain, the areas of available passage appear to be pretty narrow, and thus defensible. Better to protect the canal there than within range of artillery.

Complete cutoff of communication would be impossible, given the many points where small boats could be launched, and given what I can make of the terrain. Nevertheless, meaningful commerce could be pretty well choked off, assuming there is any. Commerce of men or materials in meaningful numbers could be stymied though.

Flow of finances could be a different matter, given Ducharin's creativity. If, for example, Desnair banked funds with the COGA, and COGA had reciprocal arrangements, many transfers could be accomplished by paper transactions.

Regarding what would happen between and among the three main governments in Howard, who knows? I don't really see any of them being in a good position to take advantage of its neighbors, in the absence of Church influence or restraint, but there's not a lot of information out there.

I do think, if the bottleneck could be successfully maintained without tying up huge amounts of ICA/ICN manpower or assets, it would eliminate the governments of the entire subcontinent as meaningful factors in the continuing struggle.

Of course, an entire subcontinent, and the manpower at the disposal of those governments, might be a mighty big fish to swallow - could give some people indigestion too.

We'll see!

Hi PeterZ,

Dairnyth is already part of the republic, possibly for a century or two, so no need to annex it now, though clearing the Dohlaran territory on the north side of the Bay of Bess might be useful, however tenuous or weak that territory appears, so taking enough depth from the Border States etc to hold all that coast might be another alliance goal.

If the Duke of Fern is as smart as he appears to be, I could see Thirsk and Ahlverez forming a regency for Rahnyld's best son or grandson, the king and his brothers etc suffering an unfortunate accident that might be blamed on secret reformers retaliating for the SoS and 'Rakurai'.

Regarding the offshore islands becoming ICN bases; being occupied and growing food, fishing, ranching etc are a given, and not very negotiable since the RDN can't stop the ICN from doing it anyway.

If Thirsk and Ahlverez are as smart as we think we are, they might try to move structurally in Siddarmark and the alliance's direction as you suggest; but just holding onto power for the immediate future, just making more moderate improvements like freeing the serfs, will keep them busy for years to come.

Trashing Dohlar after they've surrendered doesn't serve the long term plans or needs of the alliance, treating it with some respect could pay off tremendously in time because the Border States and others are willing to surrender sooner or join the alliance because they know they will be treated well.

Given South Harchong has only a fifth or sixth of the HE's population, I don't see them making war on Desnar when they're outnumbered 4 or 5 to one, especially if South Harchong has to win its independence from North Harchong first.

Desnar may refuse to learn anything making the inevitable collapse only worse.

Siddarmark and the alliance only need Desnar's upper Northwatch province portion that I've mentioned before to secure the Salthar canal, using the N-S mountains in the isthmus to reduce the required garrisons to something very sensible that even Silkiah could handle.

RFC's recent posts concerning the rule of law imply Silkiah has some of that tradition, that will help her bond with the alliance.

So far I see no need for Silkiah to join the republic, maintaining or restoring their independence may be part of the alliance's appeal, as would adding the strategic buffer of the North Watch province.

From some posts, I'm not too worried about the percentage or number of the Silkian temple loyalists, as the reformers seem to outnumber them, once the IDA is removed, and turning the Grand Duke into a constitutional monarch may have enough appeal to the aristocracy that gets their titles promoted as well may appease them enough.

Interesting times indeed.

L

PeterZ wrote:I find that Dohlar and Desnair are the most interesting political developments yet to unfold. Silkiah appears to be the most certain of the current CoGA allies to change allegiance.

Dohlar appears to be headed dow the route Japan took after WWII. Between a vengefull ICN and thoroughly ticked off RSA, Dohlar will be trashed six ways to Sunday. I can see all of their infrastructure being flattened around Gorath. If Dairnyth was part of Dohlar, it won't be after the RSA and ICA finish. Dohlar's only hope is to capitulate before their army and navy gets gutted. I doubt Dohlar will do that short of a coup by Ahlvarez and Thirsk. I doubt that will happen, but it is possible.

Once completely trashed, Dohlar will need to rebuild and the CoGA will be too broke to help much. The only thing stopping Dohlar from becomming Germany after WWI will be Charisian investment. I can see the EoC taking/keeping Dragon, Trove and Claw islands as well as establishing a base in Siddermark controlled Dairnyth. That ICN presence will keep CoGA militaries out of Dohlar and desperation to rebuild the economy will gut the aristos power in favor of a stronger rule of law. I believe that Sharley will leverage the continued threat of complete conquest by Siddermark, the economic dominance of the EoC and the heavy ICN presence into irresitable incentives for Dohlar to change.

What will arise in Dohlar will be different from Charis but more like it than anyother CoGA loyalist power.

Desnair won't have the benefit of losing to Charis that thoroughly. No, a more likely scenario is that Harchong takes the juicier bits of Desnair's interior while Siddermark pushes far enough south through North Watch and into Hankey and Kohlman to secure its border with Desnair. Desnair then will lose much of their natural resources to South Harchong and its trade routes to Siddermark and Charis. There really won't be any strategic reason for Charis or the CoGA to work with Desnair if this happens. Desnair will be left to wallow in their miserable little corner of Howard. They'll look like Delfarahk writ large. How long can the aristos maintain their power under those circumstances? I doubt even one generation. What takes the aristos place depends on how quickly the EoC defeats the coGA.

All this happens while Silkiah seeks inclusion into the Republic of Siddermark. Control of the Slathar Canal and the Gulf of Jaharas will make them very wealthy. That wealth will smooth over the feathers of just about every Temple Loyalist that remains in silkiah.

Hi BigRunt,

[or is it supposed to be BigGrunt?]

Welcome to the forums regardless, enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

Taking the two sets of locks [about a third of the way from each coast] by stealth using the scout snipers has been broached here many times, especially by me, NTM one of the unofficial early snippets deals with it, so we can leave it to RFC to handle it well.

L

bigrunt wrote:I was looking at the map of the Salthar canal, if there are any locks the COGA will destroy them to prevent free run of the iron clads down the river. If there are no locks then they will drop enough debris in the canal to block in what ever is sailing up followed up by blocking the other side miles upstream. siege warfare would eventually destroy what ever was trapped.

n7axw wrote:Welcome to the forums. I hope you enjoy the rough and tumble that happens here.

As for the subject at hand, I expect that Silkiah and Dohlar will be knocked out of the war as the next step. The Salthar Canal will be siezed by the EOC and used by to move its riverclads into the Gulf of Dohlar. With Charis controlling the seas on both sides of Howard, its isolation will be complete, rendering Desnair and South Harchong irellavant to the war.

Don

Hi SYED,

That's certainly a possibility, but given South Harchong's better weapons and probable organization, Desnar could lose more on offense than it did on defense in the centuries previous to the Harchong Empire, which could be very educational for the Desnari empire, if it seems everybody can defeat it now.

If Clyntahn tries to put the arm on both Thirsk and Ahlverez, it could trigger a switch against the Go4 that could be quite entertaining.

L

SYED wrote:I believe dohlar will suffer internal upheavals, we know thirsk is in danger of being removed by the church as well as his followers, it is common knowledge, that thirsk set the navy up, and they would be bad off with out him.
I always saw them push him too far, or his men rebel once the church goes after him.
I always see dohlar getting so smashed up, that it would easily be kept as part of the republic, offering the republic access to the west coast, and the trade there.

SOuth harchong is the profitable section of the empire, so could desnair be tempted to go after it when it is broken from the north due to charis denying sea access.

Hi XofDallas,

Welcome to the forums, enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

The North Watch isthmus is only 252 miles wide at its narrowest, but its quite mountainous so there may be only a few passes through the mountains that can be easily defended.

Technically by controlling the only N-S high road through the isthmus in half a dozen places, the alliance is already compelling Desnar to send everything north via the Hankey Sound, so the use of the canal is already lost to them.

So Howard is almost lost to the Go4 already, with South Harchong effectively blockaded, given the distances and travel time they will be irrelevant shortly.

L

XofDallas wrote:Looking at the map (thanks!), it looks like the optimal situation would be for the ICA/ICN to take the Shalthar Canal by stealth, but then to secure the land south of the Canal.

The map shows hilly areas at the narrowest point of the isthmus. If the hills are impassable, or merely difficult terrain, the areas of available passage appear to be pretty narrow, and thus defensible. Better to protect the canal there than within range of artillery.

Complete cutoff of communication would be impossible, given the many points where small boats could be launched, and given what I can make of the terrain. Nevertheless, meaningful commerce could be pretty well choked off, assuming there is any. Commerce of men or materials in meaningful numbers could be stymied though.

Flow of finances could be a different matter, given Ducharin's creativity. If, for example, Desnair banked funds with the COGA, and COGA had reciprocal arrangements, many transfers could be accomplished by paper transactions.

Regarding what would happen between and among the three main governments in Howard, who knows? I don't really see any of them being in a good position to take advantage of its neighbors, in the absence of Church influence or restraint, but there's not a lot of information out there.

I do think, if the bottleneck could be successfully maintained without tying up huge amounts of ICA/ICN manpower or assets, it would eliminate the governments of the entire subcontinent as meaningful factors in the continuing struggle.

Of course, an entire subcontinent, and the manpower at the disposal of those governments, might be a mighty big fish to swallow - could give some people indigestion too.

We'll see!

Please be careful about spoilers. At least one recent post speaks about snippets and makes implications that might qualify as a spoiler.

OK south harchong might be too much for desnair to aqcuire, but could the two bite up the smaller nations of howard, so sodar and delfrank, and i think there are a couple more. I doubt any of them were included in the church logistical plans for weaponry.
IN fact,silkiah might need to get republic or charis aid to remain independant of desnair. IT would not require much. HOward bay forces to ensure no desnair ships get close, and enough forces to make it that the only high road on the land bridge is blockaded against any military force.