ATST Snippet #1

Just a couple comments here... I got behind on this thread.

First, after the loss of the first two Rotweilers in the Gulf, there was a discussion as to how the ICN would respond. It was decided to send another pair of Rotweilers because they were available immediately to go and reinforce Sharpfield and Sarmouth. The Cities were also discussed, but the difficulty was contacting them and getting them on their way. They had essentially completed their mission of burning out Desnair's shipyards and thus available although the question of seeing that Desnair didn't rebuild was left unaddressed.

So at this point, we don't know whether a message was dispatched to send them to Sharpfield or not.

The difficulty with the Haarahlds is that we really don't know how close they are to being ready to deploy. If they are close enough, then there is no need for the Cities. If not, the Cities are more than adequate for what is needed in the Gulf.

On the other subject here, I agree that Dohlar needs to be held accountable for what happened to Manthyr and his people. But that should be a limited accountability. The real responsibility lies in Zion and that is where Charis must find true justice.

Don

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Dilandu wrote:
Again. They declared, but they actually do nothing. Yet. Of course yet. But the "oh, we knew that they would do something nasty, so let's kill them first" logic is flawed always, because there is always a chance that they wouldn't.

And again, I'm not trying to say that it makes Charis"bad guys". Its make them more REAL. Not just the country of "all good guys who should unite and kill all bad guys so there would be peace and happines (c, old proverb)", but the actual side of war, which is not always capable of ma raining moral high ground. And this is pretty realistic way.

Yes, they declared they were going to wage war without restrictions. If they win, the POWs they capture would be tortured.

Next Desnair prepared to launch their army at Siddermark. This showed that they were prepared to launch that all out war against Charisian allies.

Charis took them at their word that Desnair would indeed fight a war consistent with their policy of no limitations at all in what they would do to allied forces. Charis responds by threatening the very sorts of atrocity Desnair had already acknowledged they would commit. That threat was never carried out, by the way. As a result of that threat, Charisian and Desnarian lives were saved.

If Desnair was innocent of any atrocity, then how could Charis be any more guilty? Each side merely threatened but failed to carry out any atrocity, eh? Even if each side was dead serious about carrying out their threats, neither side actually committed any atrocities by your reconning.

evilauthor wrote:

DMcCunney wrote:\
Charis specifically wants Rahnyld dead. Whether leaving his house on the throne is a different matter. And I think leaving his house of the throne is another signal to Dohlar about how reasonable Charis is prepared to be.

Do they really? I mean, lots of people talk alot about Ranyld being responsible for this and that, but I don't recall any OFFICIAL statements made by Charisian crown (either one) or even Charisian naval officers about what the Empire's policy post-war towards Dohlar and Ranyld is going to be.

There was mention in an earlier book about a demand for Rahnyld's head being part of the underlying conflict between Charis and Dohlor. I think Cayleb and Sharleyan very much do want Rahnyld's head.

Clyntahn may have given the orders, but Rahnyld acceded to them, and Charis wants to make the point very firmly that there are things you simply don't do, and "Mother Church told me to" will not be considered an acceptable defense.

And both Cayleb and Sharleyan have long since made it clear that they understand that there's a huge difference between "what I want" and "what's politically smart and morally ethical". Executing leaders of nations because they acquiesced to Inquisition demands sets an unfortunate precedent that makes future leaders less likely to surrender and acquiesce to Charisian demands in the future. They understand that being merciful and having a reputation for such nets them and the Empire huge benefits. Demanding vengeance for the sake of vengeance gets the Empire nothing and can harm the Empire in the long run.

Agreed on Cayleb and Sharleyan's pragmatic streak. It's why Cayleb might have considered letting Hector of Corisande go into exile somewhere far away with his family, instead of taking his head.

But Charis' complaint against Rahnyld is a quite specific one. He handed over honorably surrendered prisoners to the Inquisition to face the Punishment in a mass auto-da-fe. This flew in the face of Safeholdian tradition about behavior during wartime. You may assume a lot of people in Dohlar and elsewhere were unhappy about it. Thirsk was only the tip of that iceberg. It set a very dangerous precedent.

I can't think of any other ruler on Safehold guilty of that, and Charis has tried to make the punishment fit the crime. I don't think taking Rahnyld's head under the circumstances would be an indicator to other rulers that the Charisian Empire can't be trusted. Their response would likely be "I don't blame them. If I were Charis, and he did that to my people, I'd want the same thing!"

Oh, and I'll point out that one of the reasons Corrisande and its royal family get along so well with Charis now is because Charis did NOT murder one Hektor Daykin out of hand.

Once the Corisandian royal family accepted that Cayleb didn't have Prince Hector killed, and who was responsible, it was a start. Irys, Daivin, and Earl Coris meeting and spending time with Cayleb and Sharleyan and seeing what sort of people they were was a further step. Sharleyan requiring Irys to marry Hector to bind the house of Daikyn to the house of Armakh (and telling Irys to do exactly what she wanted to do in the process) completed it. Blood ties are critical on Safehold.

Earl Coris was already on board. He understood Clyntahn had drawn the line, and you were on his side or Charis's. No one could be independent, and the best possible place for Corisande was with Charis. Daivyn already loved Sharleyan, and she was not merely his Empress but his mother-in-law and his friend. He loved Hector, too, and Hector marrying his sister and becoming his brother-in-law was icing on his cake.

Which is what executing Rahnyld would amount to.

Not hardly. Taking the head of your defeated opponent was apparently SOP in Safehold warfare. Other rulers who conquered another land would likely have not only taken the conquered land's ruler's head, but those of his family as well. Cayleb and Sharleyan are very atypical in that.

Charisian policy up to this point has been to leave the leaders of conquered nations on their thrones until they do something AFTERWARDS that merits execution. I don't see that changing just for Dohlar regardless of whether the Empire takes over afterward or not.

They wouldn't be.

Nahrman of Emerald voluntarily surrendered and agreed to Emerald becoming a province to avoid further problems, and Gorjah of Tarot did the same. Neither were conquered by force of arms. Neither country's population had a big problem with the change, and the benefits soon became apparent.

Grand Duke Zebediah committed treason and was executed, but that was only what Cayleb and Sharleyan expected of him, and the only question was when he would give them reason to take his head. Replacing him with Hauwyl Chermyn gave Zebediah good government for what appears to be the first time in its history, and most Zebediahns would probably say becoming part of the EoC was the best thing to ever happen to Zebediah.

And note that this policy was applied to lands that became part of the Empire of Charis. I don't think Cayleb and Sharleyan want Dohlar as an imperial province, and I don't think it needs to be. They want a change of management in Dohlar and Dohlar out of the Jihad and no longer actively fighting Charis. I don't see an actual conquest needed to achieve that end.

A change in management that resulted in Rahnyld's death but left his heir in line for the throne and his house still the royal house might go down easiest in Dohlar.
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Dennis