A cool encounter

n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I agree that is indeed Charis' motivation. That motivation might well lead to a spectacular morass of misery in Dohlar. As I see it, doubt will be seeping into the Dohlaran psyche.

The piety that made Dohlar such a staunch CoGA supporter will now be questioning just which side God is on. Seijin roam the earth again. The Writ's documented foot soldiers of God Himself are universally aiding the heretics. Not only that but the heretics are winning while behaving in ways that are much more consistent with the values God's Writ demands of all his children.

Are the aristocrats all that and a bag of chips they have always claimed to be? Sure some are solid leaders, but those aristocrats treat those that follow them as if those followers are worth something. the remainder that do not have brought an angry Charis and Republic against dohlar. That war appears to be misguided. Why couldn't our illustrious leader recognize that IT WAS misguided? Are they not supposed to be wiser than the common folk? Do they not have more information that we do? If they can do no better that we in recognizing this apparent truth, why keep the aristocrats in leadership positions?

Depending on how that plays out, having the Allies disinterested in who rules Dohlar might well lead to a bleeding ulcer in the heart of the Gulf of Dohlar. I am uncertain if invading and imposing a temporary political structure to ease the transition back into self sovereignty or staying outside the borders and letting the Dohlarans settle their own hash is the better option.

When all is said, Dohlar's probably the most progressive of the Temple's allies. But saying that, I don't think Charis can add constructively to the situation as an occupying power. That would turn into a tarbaby for Charis. The people who must face Dohlar's issues are the Dohlarans...without outsiders interference.

All Charis really needs here is for Dohlar to give up on the jihad.

Don

Sorry all,

the King of Dohlar and Dohlar's aristocracy must be removed. The vacuum that leaves should be filled by the Thirsks and Ahlverezes of the country and perhaps become a Siddermarkian style republic. Perhaps there will be little need to invade and occupy if there is enough pressure, i.e.:complete blockade by sea and land; complete economic isolation.

Make Dohlar accept terms Charis and Siddermark can live with.

McGuiness wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Heck, snipping the Church out has been practiced successfully in Charis, Chisholm, Emerald, Zebediah, and Tarot by now, and hacking it into line in Corisande and Siddarmark has been managed at least. So Silkiah and Dohlar have precedents. Maik even probably has reports from the losing side about how it went in each of those, which could be handy for teaching how to do it on the Reformist side. With the suspicion on Thirsk, Maik may very well be the best instigator of a coup in Dohlar - he's very well placed to neutralize the Inquisition and any Temple Guard units, and he could even get midnight visits by Seijin Abrahms for help and encouragement, when Merlin can be confident he's ready to take those steps. Thirsk and Ahlvarez are almost certain to be the public faces and secular heads of a coup, but Maik is critical to keeping the Church neutralized in moral and physical terms.

"Snipping the church out" worked for the islands that comprise the EoC because they are islands, and the ICN rules the seas. That allowed the reformists to take control of the church and bring in the Church of Charis with no threat of outside retaliation. (Other than the Rakurai attacks, but no threat of invasion.)

Dohlar is a mainland realm. Fortunately it borders on Siddarmark, who just wants it to stay home, and Silkiah, which is unarmed. So it could try to defang the Inquisition and reform the church within its borders - but Clyntahn could extend the jihad to include Dohlar as well and send the equivalent of the MHoG through the Border States, then through the South March Lands and into Dohlar to keep the natives in line.

The EoC and Siddarmark could find themselves in the strange position of defending Dohlar against the jihad, with what's left of the Dohlaran army as an ally.

Certainly that's a relevant difference, but a couple countervailing points:
Dohlar's a mainland realm, but it does also have a mainland army. (Well, all right, the remnants of one now. Still.) So if it comes to that, and to the extent they can retain control of their army, they may well be able to take it. Among the Temple's armies, Dohlar's the most experienced and doctrinally modern. I would say best equipped, but the St. Kylmahn rifles in the AoG and Mighty Host are a bit better, and while the average level of equipment Dohlar took into the South March was better than any other Temple army, so much of that isn't making it back. Still, if they left it behind, maybe the Allies can give it back if they switch sides....

In addition, Dohlar's less mainland than a lot of other places. Its theoretical land borders are all on Siddarmark and Silkiah, so if the Allies are able to control the South March and Silkiah, Dohlar's land borders are safe from the Temple. In effect, if Charis rules the Gulf of Dohlar, Siddarmark reclaims the South March, and Silkiah gets its own land back, Dohlar is free to leave the jihad - and a whole lot safer if it does. And most of the remaining Temple threat to the southwestern stretch of South March is from Dohlar anyway, while liberating Silkiah has to be on the table in any case. So a new regime in Dohlar gets de facto Allied coverage if they do no more than arrange an implicit ceasefire with the Allies.

And that would make Clyntahn howl, leave Howard and Haven isolated without the Allies having to invade any states (liberating Silkiah doesn't count), and underline, with Dohlar and Silkiah opting out, that even mainland realms can get out of the war and go right along as far as the Allies - or the essential parts of their own Churches - are concerned.

Lessons learned on the islands won't carry over perfectly, but internally, those states still had work to do and did it: secure the semaphore, pass messages to reliable troops to keep things under control, and quietly arrest Temple leaders as needed. Securing the borders is easy for the island powers, but it's not impossible for Dohlar and probably easier for them than for just about any other mainland state.

dwileye13 wrote:
Sorry all,

the King of Dohlar and Dohlar's aristocracy must be removed. The vacuum that leaves should be filled by the Thirsks and Ahlverezes of the country and perhaps become a Siddermarkian style republic. Perhaps there will be little need to invade and occupy if there is enough pressure, i.e.:complete blockade by sea and land; complete economic isolation.

Make Dohlar accept terms Charis and Siddermark can live with.

I really wouldn't carry a whole lot of water for Dohlar's artistocracy or the king.

But the question becomes, who is going to do the removing? Frankly treating Dohlar like a conquered country rather than a defeated foe would turn into a whole lot more trouble than it would be worth.

As for terms that the allies could accept, what it boils down to is stop attacking us. Stay home and mind your own business. Siddarmark has legitimate reason to police that. But Dohlar is too far away from the EOC for Charis to maintain any permanent presence on land there.

As for removing the aristocracy, that would simply be the sort of social engineering that would invite disaster, especially when you consider how unwelcome it would be.

As for the king, he's not great shakes. But the truth is that he didn't engineer the situation either. For all of the mainland realms, commitment to the church was such that disobedience was unthinkable. The only exception to that was Siddarmark for whom it only became thinkable after the SoS.

Don