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I keep coming up with more questions...

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Re: I keep coming up with more questions...
Post by SWM   » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:24 pm

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WeberFan wrote:I KNEW I'd find it if I kept re-reading!

LAMA, October 896, Chapter IV: Sarkyn, Tairohn Hills, and Archbishop's Palace, City of St. Vyrdyn, Princeton of Sarkyn. "A shiver ran through the carefully stowed cargo. The powder was Saladin casks, stacked on their sides and carefully chocked to prevent them from shifting, with each layer of casks cushioned from the ones above and below by a layer of woven straw. It was no one's fault, really, that one. cask in the bottommost tier had a cracked barrel stave. It had been damaged in loading, but the crack was so small no one had noticed it at the time... just as no one knew about the dusting of gunpowder which had sifted through the crack to gather between the damaged cask and its neighbor over the course of the thirty-five-hundred-mile journey from Lake PEI." (emphasis mine).

So back to the original point I was making in the thread... Yes, ship magazines are kept clean. Makes sense. But given the darkness of the ship magazines and their close quarters with only the "powder monkeys" entering them regularly; and given the inherent movement of the ships as they sail, I think it would be "logical" to assume that powder would "sift through cracks" in barrels or sift through the weaving of bags. Other textev suggested to me that this was pretty common and was one of the inherent hazards of the original mealed powder.

An incendiary remote detonating this "spillage" in even a few ships would devastate the ship.

Yes, I know Merlin might not countenance wholesale destruction of a fleet in this manner, but 5-10 percent of a fleet? Perhaps with the senior commanders on board?

To see David Weber's answer to this question, see the FAQ section of this website: http://www.davidweber.net/faqs/index/series:6, "Why doesn't Merlin use SNARCs to sabotage the Church's war efforts?"
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Re: I keep coming up with more questions...
Post by cralkhi   » Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:37 pm

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Dilandu wrote: And if there was too many "smutaneous explosions", it may start to look supernatural - and this is definitely NOT what Merlin want.


What bothers me is that in one of the later books (MTAT maybe) it's said that the Writ states angels will oppose any direct demonic intervention.

Wouldn't that make overtly supernatural stuff a good way to discredit the Writ? It's either

-angelic/divine (and thus God is on Charis's side)
-demonic (and since no angels show up, the Writ is wrong)
-something else (not mentioned in the Writ)

None of these options are good for the Writ/CoGA.
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Re: I keep coming up with more questions...
Post by SWM   » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:27 pm

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cralkhi wrote:
Dilandu wrote: And if there was too many "smutaneous explosions", it may start to look supernatural - and this is definitely NOT what Merlin want.


What bothers me is that in one of the later books (MTAT maybe) it's said that the Writ states angels will oppose any direct demonic intervention.

Wouldn't that make overtly supernatural stuff a good way to discredit the Writ? It's either

-angelic/divine (and thus God is on Charis's side)
-demonic (and since no angels show up, the Writ is wrong)
-something else (not mentioned in the Writ)

None of these options are good for the Writ/CoGA.

The Writ does not say that the Angels will intervene immediately or obviously. So overtly supernatural stuff can still be attributed to demonic action without invalidating the Writ.
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Re: I keep coming up with more questions...
Post by wingfield   » Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:37 pm

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WeberFan wrote:
As I interpreted RFC's words, I thought of several of the individual, tiny remotes flying into the magazine of a ship and, just at the point where a battle is getting ready to get underway (with lots of bags of powder being moved around) igniting some of the powder dust and causing a broader conflagration.

I've been aboard US Naval vessels, and I am completely aware of how clean the magazines are - clean enough that you can eat off the floor. But on an older, wooden sailing vessel? In a dark, poorly-lit powder magazine? On a ship that's rolling, pitching, yawing, and heaving? With lots of "powder monkeys" entering and exiting to get bags of mealed powder to the gun deck for the impending battle?

One spark. Just one spark...

From ONE invisible remote...

BOOM!

Anyhow, that's the picture in MY head...


Having done the tour of HMS Victory at Portsmouth, including the magazine, I recall the incredible precautions they reportedly took to avoid stupid little accidents in or anywhere nearby.

Nothing to stop a direct hit from enemy fire, of course, or a fire from that getting out of control, but they left very little to chance from their own activity.
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Re: I keep coming up with more questions...
Post by Keith_w   » Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:19 am

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wingfield wrote:
WeberFan wrote:
As I interpreted RFC's words, I thought of several of the individual, tiny remotes flying into the magazine of a ship and, just at the point where a battle is getting ready to get underway (with lots of bags of powder being moved around) igniting some of the powder dust and causing a broader conflagration.

I've been aboard US Naval vessels, and I am completely aware of how clean the magazines are - clean enough that you can eat off the floor. But on an older, wooden sailing vessel? In a dark, poorly-lit powder magazine? On a ship that's rolling, pitching, yawing, and heaving? With lots of "powder monkeys" entering and exiting to get bags of mealed powder to the gun deck for the impending battle?

One spark. Just one spark...

From ONE invisible remote...

BOOM!

Anyhow, that's the picture in MY head...


Having done the tour of HMS Victory at Portsmouth, including the magazine, I recall the incredible precautions they reportedly took to avoid stupid little accidents in or anywhere nearby.

Nothing to stop a direct hit from enemy fire, of course, or a fire from that getting out of control, but they left very little to chance from their own activity.


You can visit the forward magazine of the HMS Trincomalee at Hartleypool in County Durham (1817, currently the oldest warship afloat while the USS Constitution is in dry dock), and in this virtual tour: http://www.hms-trincomalee.co.uk/virtual-tour/orlop-and-hold. Note the nice shiny copper in the magazine to prevent sparks.
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Re: I keep coming up with more questions...
Post by Expert snuggler   » Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:39 pm

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In any event, if a magazine mysteriously blew, Clyntahn would shout the equivalent of "Remember the Maine!".

More subtle sabotage might be highly effective. Imagine having an Owl remote swap someone's measurement standards with _less_ accurate ones. But that would directly go against Merlin's primary goal.

This is a stretch, but what about psychological sabotage? Could a seijin conveniently appear at a CoGa lab and drop off plans for some useful infantry weapon which doesn't obviously use electricity but which can be proven to do so after the Church has already issued thousands and used them?

One unexplored area is bribery. Harchong must have a jewelry industry. What about introducing a new process for plating metal onto things, involving dissimilar metals in an acid bath and wire coming out? Don't explain how it works, just give a Harchongese Inquisitor appropriate per$ua$ive theological arguments. The Comstock lode will supply lots and lots of clinking theological reasoning.
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Re: I keep coming up with more questions...
Post by SWM   » Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:09 pm

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Expert snuggler wrote:This is a stretch, but what about psychological sabotage? Could a seijin conveniently appear at a CoGa lab and drop off plans for some useful infantry weapon which doesn't obviously use electricity but which can be proven to do so after the Church has already issued thousands and used them?

No. The Inquisition has been very good about stopping people who stray into forbidden research of electricity. They know what to look for. They've been doing that for centuries. They aren't going to accidentally miss that in a new weapon design.
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Re: I keep coming up with more questions...
Post by n7axw   » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:44 pm

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Hey, guys,


SWM is right. At least until the proscriptions are put out to pasture, the power of the inquisition broken, and the OBS is neutralized, the answer to electricity is NO. Period. Full stop.

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Re: I keep coming up with more questions...
Post by cralkhi   » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:46 pm

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SWM wrote:The Writ does not say that the Angels will intervene immediately or obviously. So overtly supernatural stuff can still be attributed to demonic action without invalidating the Writ.


To some degree, but if Merlin was running around doing all sorts of stuff against the CoGA (fighting armies singlehanded, etc.)... while disclaiming being an angel... people would stop believing that pretty quickly IMO.
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Re: I keep coming up with more questions...
Post by Expert snuggler   » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:35 am

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Someone here, who deserves credit and would get it if I remembered who it was, pointed out the easy rationalization of "the angels are waiting for you to prove your faith".
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