Machine Guns by Summer '98?

RoF will be much higher than 2:1... bolt actions can fire almost a round a second, before reloading, with well drilled troops.

Too often its common for history's losers to be branded stupid for losing by armchair generals with field Marshall Hindsight on their side when they didn't know critical factors their critics take for granted.

Thank you for Marshall Hindsight Lyonheart.

Hi Isilith,

I don't recall reading you're posts before, so welcome to the forum and enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

I'm talking aimed fire, because the M96 is very similar to the British Enfield whose infantry trained to the 20 aimed shots per minute standard before WW1, that's what I'm using.


L

Isilith wrote:RoF will be much higher than 2:1... bolt actions can fire almost a round a second, before reloading, with well drilled troops.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Isilith,

I don't recall reading you're posts before, so welcome to the forum and enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

I'm talking aimed fire, because the M96 is very similar to the British Enfield whose infantry trained to the 20 aimed shots per minute standard before WW1, that's what I'm using.


L

Isilith wrote:RoF will be much higher than 2:1... bolt actions can fire almost a round a second, before reloading, with well drilled troops.

Just thinking about your response to Matt. You were a bit hard on him, but I do agree that stupidity is not the issue.

I see the problem as twofold. The first is that no one on the COGA side demonstrates the overall institutional experience and professionalism of the Chisholmians and Siddarmarkans.

The second thing is that no one on the Temple side understands that the new weapons means that what we have is a brand new game with vastly different rules.

I suspect that these two factors are at least as important as the new weapons themselves. When you think about it, with exception of that business on the Daivyn where they had Taisyn just a wee bit out numbered the Temple's only victories have been against pikes. That says a lot all by itself.

Don

Hi Keith_w,

Well thank you, but I won't take credit for the title, though he's usually only credited as a general.

Well, it bothers me when people pontificate but don't pay attention to the textev.

I also forget and make mistakes of course [including spelling], but not in the basic nature of what's happening, and the Go4's generals have generally [pardon the pun] suffered battlefield surprises from weapons they didn't know about or understand, even if they had read descriptions, because they didn't comprehend the magnitude of what they faced.

I have posted previously on a few of the almost infinite ways the ICA could easily obliterate the various expected MHoG sub-armies by road or canal/river ambushes or meeting engagements etc, which RFC won't use because they're too easy, and he doesn't write military porn.

Given the oft repeated textev that it takes Safehold mainland armies most of a day to position themselves for a battle even when they're far smaller than the MHoG, while the ICA deploys far more quickly, as did the RSA pike armies [I expect some RSA victories were because they attacked before the Desnarians had finished deploying or were ready etc], the ICA could be taking the MHoG's supply trains etc 5-10 miles to the rear before the MHoG noticed.

There are at least 14, possibly 15-16 ICA divisions [or their equivalent like Hanth's] for roughly 100,000-114,000 Harchongese per ICA division, or about 6-1 odds in manpower; but only 40% have rifles and less than a seventh of whom are supposed to have St. Kylman breech loaders.

Such a sub army might line up on a front 7.5-8 miles long, given 3 ranks of 13,071 muzzle-loaders [with ~5 more Harchongese behind each rank], with a St. Kylman skirmisher almost every other yard in front and capable of firing a possible combined 221,852 bullets per minute.

The ICA division has some 13.312-14,336 riflemen, given the textev of DE's battle on the Daivyn; When armed with the M96, were they to put everyone in the line shoulder-to shoulder they would overlap the Harchong; though the shoulder-to-shoulder stuff would be stupid and counter to their evident doctrine, ie spread out at least 3-4 yards apart so they'd really overlap the Harchong with all the potential tactical possibilities of flanking and enveloping [while still having a reserve], and at 20 aimed rounds per minute potentially fire some 266,240 to 286,720 bullets per minute or 20-29% more.

Of course its in the first 10-15 or 20 seconds, leaving aside what havoc the mortars and artillery are doing, when the MHoG realises the ICA is firing twice as fast as the St. Kylman and five times faster than the muzzle loaders that the battle will be decided as the Harchong begin to take more cover rather than try to reload.

Given how poorly equipped the Go4 was in artillery, its hard to see how even Duchairn can provide the MHoGatA with even a thousand cannon by summer, even if almost all are 12 pounder 'Napoleon' types, but even 15-1600 would still be far too few [a ratio of 1000 men to 1 cannon] against the ICA division's probable minimum of 192 artillery pieces assuming only 1 attached artillery regiment, and some 192-384 3" mortars [the latter ratio again from DE's battle on the Daivyn] besides probably a dozen 4.5" mortars per regiment [at least initially], for 48 more and a grand total of some 624 mortar and artillery tubes for this single division totaling something around 21,500 men or about 35 men per tube or a ratio 29 times higher than the Harchong, firing more powerful and deadly shells faster than mainly solid shot or short range canister, assuming the ICA allowed the MHoG's artillery to get to the battle line intact in the first place.

Again magazine rifles and mortars besides its established artillery superiority, are all the ICA needs to win this war, even against the many Harchong.

Shucks, after the artillery and mortars sink the canal barges of a 200,000 man sub army [~200 in 5-10 minutes?], the 100,000 plus unarmed soggy survivors will be quite happy to work for food.

L

Keith_w wrote:

Too often its common for history's losers to be branded stupid for losing by armchair generals with Field Marshall Hindsight on their side when they didn't know critical factors their critics take for granted.

Thank you for Marshall Hindsight Lyonheart.

Hi Don,

Always good to read your posts.

Your right, and I apologise in that I meant nothing personal towards Matt, but it was a fatuous thing to post [nor do I want RFC to take take time out to respond to the obvious when we're all desperate for another snippet] and Matt has traditionally been better or more thoughtful than that end comment.

Regarding your other observations, many kudos because you're absolutely correct.

The RSA's reputation as the most professional mainland army was obviously deserved, although the Dohlar survivors are demonstrating a quicker learning curve than anyone else on the Go4's side, though that's actually an insulting comparison with the exception of Nybar and Wyrshym.

The fact is the ICA has been changing the known paradigms of of war on Safehold in almost every battle, a truly incredible performance from their enemies' viewpoint; and thanks to their still unknown winter capabilities, indirect fire [yet to be demonstrated on a massive scale], the M96, the 4.5" mortar, and the breech loading 6" howitzers, NTM pre-dreadnought battleships etc, they will continue to astonish and easily defeat them for the foreseeable future.

Then one wonders how soon before the wise enemy leaders like Duchairn, Magwair and Rayno in the temple realise the war is or will be lost.

Then one wonders what they will do, particularly about Clyntahn.

For Dohlar, what will Fern, Thirsk, Ahlverez and Rychtyr do and how soon?

L

n7axw wrote:*quote="lyonheart"8Hi Isilith,

I don't recall reading you're posts before, so welcome to the forum and enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

I'm talking aimed fire, because the M96 is very similar to the British Enfield whose infantry trained to the 20 aimed shots per minute standard before WW1, that's what I'm using.


L

Isilith wrote:RoF will be much higher than 2:1... bolt actions can fire almost a round a second, before reloading, with well drilled troops.

*quote*

Just thinking about your response to Matt. You were a bit hard on him, but I do agree that stupidity is not the issue.

I see the problem as twofold. The first is that no one on the COGA side demonstrates the overall institutional experience and professionalism of the Chisholmians and Siddarmarkans.

The second thing is that no one on the Temple side understands that the new weapons means that what we have is a brand new game with vastly different rules.

I suspect that these two factors are at least as important as the new weapons themselves. When you think about it, with exception of that business on the Daivyn where they had Taisyn just a wee bit out numbered the Temple's only victories have been against pikes. That says a lot all by itself.

Don

Actually, you should have said 'both'. The AoG itself looks eminently professional to me - just look at Nybar in the Gap - but you're right about the experience. But then, where would the Church _get_ that experience? It has a Captain General, but you can bet your mortgage on that being a traditional, not a practical, appellation. The Church hasn't fought a war in 900 years, and I'd be surprised if the KotTL had fought one in their entire existence.

The Dohlarans look pretty professional, too, and the fact that their senior field generals are mere knights bears that out. They're still playing catch-up, but it looks to me as if they'd have made it if they'd been given the time, rather as Thirsk is doing at sea. OTOH, they also seem short on experience. I'm not sure when they fought their last war, but odds are there hasn't been anything beyond border skirmishes in a couple of centuries. Their professionalism is that of intelligent observers, not experienced participants - so far. The gradient on their learning curve is pretty impressive.

Desnair, now... If anyone on the CoGA side should have institutional experience, it's the Desnairians. Their erstwhile, and current, opponents certainly don't seem to have forgotten much, anyway. What seems to have happened is that they learned all the wrong lessons from the wars they lost. [It wouldn't surprise me to learn that they have something similar to Weimar Germany's "stabbed in the back" explanation for that, too] Probably, the reason for that is that they aren't, at least at the higher levels, professionals at all. Their working assumption is that _of_course_ an aristocrat is a natural commander, and the higher the aristocratic rank, the more apt he must be for any high command he should choose to take up. And, like arrogant p***ks everywhere, they have no intention of learning any lessons from anyone, particularly not their disgraced predecessors. The Amateur Army, that's what they are. And since they know their Bradley they never study logistics!

n7axw wrote:Just thinking about your response to Matt. You were a bit hard on him, but I do agree that stupidity is not the issue.

I see the problem as twofold. The first is that no one on the COGA side demonstrates the overall institutional experience and professionalism of the Chisholmians and Siddarmarkans.

The second thing is that no one on the Temple side understands that the new weapons means that what we have is a brand new game with vastly different rules.

I suspect that these two factors are at least as important as the new weapons themselves. When you think about it, with exception of that business on the Daivyn where they had Taisyn just a wee bit out numbered the Temple's only victories have been against pikes. That says a lot all by itself.

Don

Louis R wrote:Actually, you should have said 'both'. The AoG itself looks eminently professional to me - just look at Nybar in the Gap - but you're right about the experience. But then, where would the Church _get_ that experience? It has a Captain General, but you can bet your mortgage on that being a traditional, not a practical, appellation. The Church hasn't fought a war in 900 years, and I'd be surprised if the KotTL had fought one in their entire existence.

The Dohlarans look pretty professional, too, and the fact that their senior field generals are mere knights bears that out. They're still playing catch-up, but it looks to me as if they'd have made it if they'd been given the time, rather as Thirsk is doing at sea. OTOH, they also seem short on experience. I'm not sure when they fought their last war, but odds are there hasn't been anything beyond border skirmishes in a couple of centuries. Their professionalism is that of intelligent observers, not experienced participants - so far. The gradient on their learning curve is pretty impressive.

Desnair, now... If anyone on the CoGA side should have institutional experience, it's the Desnairians. Their erstwhile, and current, opponents certainly don't seem to have forgotten much, anyway. What seems to have happened is that they learned all the wrong lessons from the wars they lost. [It wouldn't surprise me to learn that they have something similar to Weimar Germany's "stabbed in the back" explanation for that, too] Probably, the reason for that is that they aren't, at least at the higher levels, professionals at all. Their working assumption is that _of_course_ an aristocrat is a natural commander, and the higher the aristocratic rank, the more apt he must be for any high command he should choose to take up. And, like arrogant p***ks everywhere, they have no intention of learning any lessons from anyone, particularly not their disgraced predecessors. The Amateur Army, that's what they are. And since they know their Bradley they never study logistics!

The Temple lands probably has the best excuse. They have never had an army beyond a guard force before and as a consequence have been starting almost completely from scratch. Further, they lost a strong percentage of their best people with the NOG in the Markovian Sea. They do understand such things as discipline, but have yet to show a grasp of either mini or macro tactics. The best that can be said for them is that they have approached the subject of logistics with thoughtful intelligence. However at the same time, if they survive their current deficiencies, they will move from amateur to professional status.

The Dohlarians have a longstanding military tradition on both land and sea. And one must see people like Thirsk, Ahlverez and Rychtar as professinals. However, like the Desnairians, they are relying far too heavily on family and aristocratic connections for their officer corp to be regarded as thoroughly professional. What they have done, however is to demonstrate an ability to learn from mistakes. I refer to their overhaul of their quartermaster corp and also Ryvhtar's and Ahlverez's performance in the field.

What sets aside the Chisholmian Army is that their officer corp is promoted into their position on the basis of merit. Further, they don't assume they have their craft mastered, but are constantly studying and looking for ways to improve what they do not merely after they get cracked alongside the head in war, but also in peacetime. That mentality was already in place and functioning before BGV arrived to start introducing the new weapons. That's what I am calling professionalism. Actually, the other place where this is demonstrated is with the RCN on the sea. That was key to Merlin being able to introduce the galleons and otherwise give Charis the tools to survive in the early phases of the war.

When you think about it, Chisholm's military tradition doesn't go back all that far. It really begins with the reign of King Sailys who was the Royal Army's founder. They restricted the aristocrats to the people they knew to be both loyal and competent, recruited from the ranks of commoners and promoted on the basis of merit no matter where they found it. They won the war that broke the back of the aristocrats and then went on from there in terms of studying to improve their knowledge and understanding of their craft.

What I am describing defines professionalism no matter what the craft. In my own vocation as a clergyman I was strongly encouraged to do continuing education. The same is true for doctors, lawyers, engineers and on and on the list could go.

Don