What did the Temple Circle hope to accomplish?

Caliban wrote:Perhaps it's the speed at which the wind is generated- I can see the CoGA utilizing the 'haste is a device of (Shan Wei)'arguement, quite honsetly...

If that were true, I think we would have heard of it by now.

Besides which, guns and gunpowder predate Merlin waking up, so it's already too late to say gunpowder violates the Proscriptions. Unless Clyntahn is REALLY intent on gutting his own side's fighting ability...

The point about gunpowder being against the Proscriptions is that it is very clearly not what the authors of the Writ intended. Any straightforward reading of the Proscriptions makes that obvious. The fact that gunpowder and steam can be weaseled in is just evidence that it is impossible to legislate against all possible innovations. There is frequently some way to work around it, unless you explicitly prohibit something in great detail (as is the case with electricity).

I've got to compliment you guys. You are even better at "chop logic" than Father Paityr...

Don

SWM wrote:The point about gunpowder being against the Proscriptions is that it is very clearly not what the authors of the Writ intended. Any straightforward reading of the Proscriptions makes that obvious. The fact that gunpowder and steam can be weaseled in is just evidence that it is impossible to legislate against all possible innovations. There is frequently some way to work around it, unless you explicitly prohibit something in great detail (as is the case with electricity).

Well of course it is. It's all but spelled out in the text that this is the case.

n7axw wrote:I've got to compliment you guys. You are even better at "chop logic" than Father Paityr...

Don

We've got more freedom than he does - with the moral authority of the Writ and the Proscriptions being what it is, he has to be careful that chop logic meets standards that avoid actual chopping. The worst we face is loss of face among forum-dwellers.

SWM wrote:

evilauthor wrote:Even then, FIRE is definitely involved in propelling bullets. While fire might not be one of the "holy trinity", people have been using fire since Creation. Kinda hard to cook food without using fire after all.

The presence of fire does not help. Sure, fire is permitted, but that doesn't mean that fire is one of the things allowed to do work.

Since pressure cookers for canning food have been around since the Day of Creation, it can be argued that canning is indeed "work," which enabled Paityr Wylsynn to cite their existence in approving the steam engine. After all, it merely confines steam under pressure and releases it as needed, just like pressure cookers do.

Obviously the archangels didn't anticipate the power of bribery and creative interpretation when they wrote the Proscriptions, or they'd have been much more specific in what was and wasn't permitted. Of course the specifics that were written into the Proscriptions gave the heretics a good idea of where to begin experimenting, which the Charisians used to good advantage in chemistry and weapons development before they had access to OWL.

Oops!

McGuiness wrote:

SWM wrote:The presence of fire does not help. Sure, fire is permitted, but that doesn't mean that fire is one of the things allowed to do work.

Since pressure cookers for canning food have been around since the Day of Creation, it can be argued that canning is indeed "work," which enabled Paityr Wylsynn to cite their existence in approving the steam engine. After all, it merely confines steam under pressure and releases it as needed, just like pressure cookers do.

Obviously the archangels didn't anticipate the power of bribery and creative interpretation when they wrote the Proscriptions, or they'd have been much more specific in what was and wasn't permitted. Of course the specifics that were written into the Proscriptions gave the heretics a good idea of where to begin experimenting, which the Charisians used to good advantage in chemistry and weapons development before they had access to OWL.

Oops!

That is an argument in favor of steam being permitted. Once again, fire is irrelevant to the argument.

n7axw wrote:

I've got to compliment you guys. You are even better at "chop logic" than Father Paityr...

I once read a book by rabbi Joseph Telushkin titled Jewish Wisdom, which I recommend highly. In it he describes the opinion that rabbis should be able to argue the point that lizards are kosher. The point being that lizards are not kosher, but the ability to argue that they are gives rabbis the ability to recognize logic chopping when they encounter it. Good to know.

~Tonto

McGuiness wrote:

Obviously the archangels didn't anticipate the power of bribery and creative interpretation when they wrote the Proscriptions, or they'd have been much more specific in what was and wasn't permitted.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

~Tonto