Just a random thought on the return

Not that the Returnee is going to be hiding who he/she is anyway. NTM if it's one of the Archangels her/his portrait is hanging in all sorts of churches all over Safehold.

Hi Joat42,

It was about 20 years when Father Piatyr Wylsynn warned the inner circle back in 895, so now its 18 years.

L

Joat42 wrote:

jgnfld wrote:My reasoning would be as follows:

1. The sudden introduction of clear analogues of devices from Earth's history.
A lot of the stuff is actually just a continuation of tech and devices already present on Safehold, I would say this point isn't as clearcut as you believe.
2. The lack of extended technological wrong turns/dead ends, particularly in the Empire of Charis.
See above, but also this is not an indication of PICAs; it's an indication that they possibly had access to information explaining things.
3. The unerring intelligence coups that keep appearing to happen.
And Nynian (and SSK) managed that without any technological help what so ever. And for all the vaunted "intelligence coups" they couldn't stop some bombs going off here and there. Still no evidence of PICAs or federation tech, just a very good intelligence organization.
4. The stories of a super soldier with incredibly fast reflexes.
Stories... How much of the stories are truth and fiction? Stories tend to change a lot in the telling. And the stories is about a "demon" according to the Go4. Connecting stories about demons with PICAs is a stretch.
5. Stories of multiple super soldiers in multiple places who just happen to provide accidental coordination for the Empire of Charis.
What? Multiple and coordinating? Where did that come from? As far as ANYONE know except the inner circle there is no coordination going on, AND most of it is done by the inner circle together with Owl AND they take great pains no too seem to be infallible. Still no evidence for PICAs.
6. Several assassinations much better explained by access to advanced tech.
As far as I know there is nothing particular about those which one or more competent assassins couldn't do, which Nynian amply demonstrated.
7. (Consulting the OBS records) Sudden appearance of anomalous heat sources on remote islands.
Inconclusive, the heat sources can have been anything. This also posits that the OBS keep the logs for 30 years about events that don't trigger it.
8. (Consulting OBS records) Numerous flights by archangelic vehicles.
You mean the stealthed recon skimmer?
9. SNARC observations of the bodyguards seemingly at the centre of all the above.
What SNARC observations??? Do you posit that there are currently SNARCs whizzing around Safehold documenting everything that's going on and they are especially targeting Merlin and Nynian?

and any number of other anomalies.
Anomalies happens. It's when something unusual doesn't happen when you should look closer (see Law of very large numbers), as someone said: "It's a very unusual day when something unusual doesn't happen at all."

It simply would leap out to a competent member of the Federation--and this fleet was staffed by the most competent remaining people available--that there is a Federation influence at work. Sure, other hypotheses would have to be crossed off, but it would leap out as well upon any deeper examination that there is an active, probably superhuman, real honest-to-goodness Federation influence at work, not some holdover remnant.

As I said, Nimue in all her instantiations really is doing nothing to hide her tracks from an investigator with access to Federation tech and a Federation mindset. It was never her plan to have to hide from that sort of investigator, and she has not acted in ways to foil that sort of investigator. Not that she probably could and still be successful.

No, it wouldn't leap out that there are PICAs running around. What can be inferred is that there is someone around that probably has access to federation tech, that's it. That someone may well be a native Safeholdian that has access to for example a computer with a learning package is an entirely possible explanation, it can be descendants from the original crew that have kept the knowledge and tech alive generation by generation.

There are at least 30 years (if remember correctly) until the return and their first thought will be "WTF happened?" and they will have a LOT of information to sift through to make sense on what happened and most of it will probably be written on paper. Sending out investigators is not an option since they don't have the manpower for it. If they get the chance to do anything at all because in 30 years the war is probably over and when they go to Zion they most likely will stunned and restrained and then questioned. Thats if the return involves corporeal people at all, otherwise by that time any secrets in Zion has probably been uncovered already.

You assume that by the time the return happens Safehold is at the same state as it is now which will not be true.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Joat42,

It was about 20 years when Father Piatyr Wylsynn warned the inner circle back in 895, so now its 18 years.

L

I looked at the timeline on the wiki and couldn't figure out how much time was left so I went with the a number that I thought was right. Wrong.

Wouldn't a returning Archangel/AI or whatever it is look over the current state of the CoGA and be a much bigger threat to Clyntahn and the Go4 (assuming they're still around in 20 years, which is unlikely) than immediately striking out at the "heretics?" Remember the how Paityr Wylsynn described the purpose of the angels return:

“according to the ‘Vision of Schueler,’” Wylsynn said softly, “the Archangels themselves will return a thousand years after the Creation to be sure Mother Church continues to serve the true plan of God.”

Paityr didn't say that the purpose of the Archangel's return was "to see if mankind is still following the plan of God." He specifically said that the purpose of the Archangel's return was to see if Mother Church was still serving the true plan of God, which clearly she isn't.

It would be a fairly simple task for something based in the temple to realize rather quickly that the CoGA has been off the rails for close to two or three centuries, and that all of the exceptions and dispensations to bypass the Proscriptions issued by the Grand Inquisitor have made the situation worse - not to mention that he's destroying entire nations and has started wars that have split Mother Church apart.

The vicarate is almost completely corrupt, and that would be readily evident from records available in the temple. The Inquisition has become Clyntahn's SS, a group of sadists who are assuaging their bloodlust on innocents.

Yes, the "heretics" (who actually follow the CoGA's teachings more closely than the CoGA itself) are amazingly clever at developing new weapons, infrastructure, and ships, but they need to do that to survive. Some of their inventions may go beyond what was envisioned by the Proscriptions, specifically those that use steam power, although the arguments allowing them stand on firmer ground that the approval of gunpowder, which was a clear violation of the Proscriptions. But given a big enough bribe, a corrupt Mother Church was willing to allow it.

The return of the Archangels in whatever form is a two-edged sword for the CoGA. Yes, whatever comes back may take steps against the "heretics," but it is certainto cleanse the temple of the vile powers who have seized the reins of Mother Church and have turned her into nothing more than a tool to expand their power and wealth, assuage their lusts, and rule all of Safehold with an iron fist of fear.

This was never the intention of the Archangels when they set up the CoGA as the "guardian of men's souls" and the linchpin of the stable social matrix Langhorne envisioned to ensure that humanity would never advance scientifically enough to give itself away to the Gbaba.

The EoC should certainly fear the return of the Archangels, but those in Zion have much more reason to fear. It's abundantly clear that the mission of the returning Archangels to make sure that Mother Church is still on track will result in the destruction of the vicarate and much of the church hierarchy as it now exists. There's a chance that the Archangels might look at the Church of Charis as the true remnant of what they envisioned the CoGA to be - minus some of the new inventions which it's approved.

It might actually be easier to declare the Church of Charis to be the legitimate CoGA than to purge the current vicarate and all the corrupt levels of the current CoGA, then search for worthy men to replace them. (But have no doubt that the current vicarate will be purged!)

Setting the Rakurai loose on Zion and the Temple Lands would be a memorable way to show their displeasure, and to emphasize who they feel was at fault...

Hi McGuiness,

This has been discussed before and what Clyntahn's reaction to a Schueler AI or 3D image condemning his excesses has encouraged some great humor.

Unfortunately the CoGA doesn't know the archangels are returning since the Wylsynn's haven't told anyone but the inner circle.

So yes, the future interview could go much better than Merlin and the inner circle expects right now.

So feel free to suggest some more humor.

"Clyntahn, -you're nothing more than a worthless piece of slime-, so before you go to hell, you get to experience everything the punishment promises real heretics like you."

L

McGuiness wrote:Wouldn't a returning Archangel/AI or whatever it is look over the current state of the CoGA and be a much bigger threat to Clyntahn and the Go4 (assuming they're still around in 20 years, which is unlikely) than immediately striking out at the "heretics?" Remember the how Paityr Wylsynn described the purpose of the angels return:

“according to the ‘Vision of Schueler,’” Wylsynn said softly, “the Archangels themselves will return a thousand years after the Creation to be sure Mother Church continues to serve the true plan of God.”

Paityr didn't say that the purpose of the Archangel's return was "to see if mankind is still following the plan of God." He specifically said that the purpose of the Archangel's return was to see if Mother Church was still serving the true plan of God, which clearly she isn't.

It would be a fairly simple task for something based in the temple to realize rather quickly that the CoGA has been off the rails for close to two or three centuries, and that all of the exceptions and dispensations to bypass the Proscriptions issued by the Grand Inquisitor have made the situation worse - not to mention that he's destroying entire nations and has started wars that have split Mother Church apart.

The vicarate is almost completely corrupt, and that would be readily evident from records available in the temple. The Inquisition has become Clyntahn's SS, a group of sadists who are assuaging their bloodlust on innocents.

Yes, the "heretics" (who actually follow the CoGA's teachings more closely than the CoGA itself) are amazingly clever at developing new weapons, infrastructure, and ships, but they need to do that to survive. Some of their inventions may go beyond what was envisioned by the Proscriptions, specifically those that use steam power, although the arguments allowing them stand on firmer ground that the approval of gunpowder, which was a clear violation of the Proscriptions. But given a big enough bribe, a corrupt Mother Church was willing to allow it.

The return of the Archangels in whatever form is a two-edged sword for the CoGA. Yes, whatever comes back may take steps against the "heretics," but it is certainto cleanse the temple of the vile powers who have seized the reins of Mother Church and have turned her into nothing more than a tool to expand their power and wealth, assuage their lusts, and rule all of Safehold with an iron fist of fear.

This was never the intention of the Archangels when they set up the CoGA as the "guardian of men's souls" and the linchpin of the stable social matrix Langhorne envisioned to ensure that humanity would never advance scientifically enough to give itself away to the Gbaba.

The EoC should certainly fear the return of the Archangels, but those in Zion have much more reason to fear. It's abundantly clear that the mission of the returning Archangels to make sure that Mother Church is still on track will result in the destruction of the vicarate and much of the church hierarchy as it now exists. There's a chance that the Archangels might look at the Church of Charis as the true remnant of what they envisioned the CoGA to be - minus some of the new inventions which it's approved.

It might actually be easier to declare the Church of Charis to be the legitimate CoGA than to purge the current vicarate and all the corrupt levels of the current CoGA, then search for worthy men to replace them. (But have no doubt that the current vicarate will be purged!)

Setting the Rakurai loose on Zion and the Temple Lands would be a memorable way to show their displeasure, and to emphasize who they feel was at fault...

McGuiness wrote:Wouldn't a returning Archangel/AI or whatever it is look over the current state of the CoGA and be a much bigger threat to Clyntahn and the Go4 (assuming they're still around in 20 years, which is unlikely) than immediately striking out at the "heretics?" Remember the how Paityr Wylsynn described the purpose of the angels return:

“according to the ‘Vision of Schueler,’” Wylsynn said softly, “the Archangels themselves will return a thousand years after the Creation to be sure Mother Church continues to serve the true plan of God.”

Paityr didn't say that the purpose of the Archangel's return was "to see if mankind is still following the plan of God." He specifically said that the purpose of the Archangel's return was to see if Mother Church was still serving the true plan of God, which clearly she isn't.

It would be a fairly simple task for something based in the temple to realize rather quickly that the CoGA has been off the rails for close to two or three centuries, and that all of the exceptions and dispensations to bypass the Proscriptions issued by the Grand Inquisitor have made the situation worse - not to mention that he's destroying entire nations and has started wars that have split Mother Church apart.

The vicarate is almost completely corrupt, and that would be readily evident from records available in the temple. The Inquisition has become Clyntahn's SS, a group of sadists who are assuaging their bloodlust on innocents.

Yes, the "heretics" (who actually follow the CoGA's teachings more closely than the CoGA itself) are amazingly clever at developing new weapons, infrastructure, and ships, but they need to do that to survive. Some of their inventions may go beyond what was envisioned by the Proscriptions, specifically those that use steam power, although the arguments allowing them stand on firmer ground that the approval of gunpowder, which was a clear violation of the Proscriptions. But given a big enough bribe, a corrupt Mother Church was willing to allow it.

The return of the Archangels in whatever form is a two-edged sword for the CoGA. Yes, whatever comes back may take steps against the "heretics," but it is certainto cleanse the temple of the vile powers who have seized the reins of Mother Church and have turned her into nothing more than a tool to expand their power and wealth, assuage their lusts, and rule all of Safehold with an iron fist of fear.

This was never the intention of the Archangels when they set up the CoGA as the "guardian of men's souls" and the linchpin of the stable social matrix Langhorne envisioned to ensure that humanity would never advance scientifically enough to give itself away to the Gbaba.

The EoC should certainly fear the return of the Archangels, but those in Zion have much more reason to fear. It's abundantly clear that the mission of the returning Archangels to make sure that Mother Church is still on track will result in the destruction of the vicarate and much of the church hierarchy as it now exists. There's a chance that the Archangels might look at the Church of Charis as the true remnant of what they envisioned the CoGA to be - minus some of the new inventions which it's approved.

It might actually be easier to declare the Church of Charis to be the legitimate CoGA than to purge the current vicarate and all the corrupt levels of the current CoGA, then search for worthy men to replace them. (But have no doubt that the current vicarate will be purged!)

Setting the Rakurai loose on Zion and the Temple Lands would be a memorable way to show their displeasure, and to emphasize who they feel was at fault...

Of course. We know that the returning Archangel would almost certainly reform the Church. But that's the problem. The biggest concern about the Return is not what he or she might do directly against Charis. The problem is that it would almost certainly destroy any chance for Merlin and Cayleb to bring technology into Safehold. Yes, there is some concern about what the Archangel might do with the Rakurai, or official Angelic declarations against Charis. But that's not what Merlin is most worried about. The changes that the Archangel would bring to the Church of God Awaiting, and the direct Angelic reform of deviations from the Proscriptions could set back any chances of bringing Safehold out of it's dark age for another thousand years.

SWM wrote:Of course. We know that the returning Archangel would almost certainly reform the Church. But that's the problem. The biggest concern about the Return is not what he or she might do directly against Charis. The problem is that it would almost certainly destroy any chance for Merlin and Cayleb to bring technology into Safehold. Yes, there is some concern about what the Archangel might do with the Rakurai, or official Angelic declarations against Charis. But that's not what Merlin is most worried about.

I agree - which is why I've repeatedly pointed out that a successful coup by Duchairn might be the worst thing that could happen to the future of the human race. That would be a disaster for Merlin's agenda to introduce high tech, since the necessities of the war have whittled away at the Proscriptions. Ironically, the war must continue so as to ensure the preservation of the human species in the long run, despite the millions who will die.

That's probably why we haven't seen an ICN fleet sailing into Temple bay and unloading the troops, despite promises by Sharley and Cayleb that they'd do exactly that someday.

When that day arrives, it will be extremely entertaining to see the Inquisition's troops trying to fight against ICA regulars. Sort of like Mab's assassination of all the troops and inquisitors involved in the Sarkyn massacre, only with thousands of inquisitors and their Temple Guard soldiers on the receiving end. (Remember that all the troops in the temple and Zion are under control of the Inquisition, not Magwair.)

Whenever the thing under the temple wakes up, it's crucial that the EoC have control of the temple so they can hopefully defeat whatever it is before it reveals itself to Safehold at large, especially if it has control of the Rakurai. Figuring out what it is and disabling it before it has a chance to wake up would be even better.

lyonheart wrote:Hi McGuiness,

This has been discussed before and what Clyntahn's reaction to a Schueler AI or 3D image condemning his excesses has encouraged some great humor.

Sounds like interesting read. Could you give the link to this thread? (Or one of those, if there were many)

On another note, I'd like to bring attention to the post in "Anticipated length of Safehold series" thread (NervousEnergy's post)
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5254&start=10

Relevant piece here:

NervousEnergy wrote:I still think the key to that is finding out that there's an AI matrix in the Stone of Schuler that's a recording of Schuler himself, and that he was a reformist who had the Book of Schuler hung on him out of convenience and spite. That would set up a second Angelic War when the Archangels 'come back' (AI matrixes wake up in the Temple, housed in the Hamilcar's computer core).

Unless the goodies in Nimue's cave is just a giant red herring that never gets used, then a scenario like this is the only way I can think of where they WOULD get used. Orthodox AI (Chihiro?) in the Temple wake up and open the Secret Temple Armory, and Nimue deploys the weapons from the Bat Cave. I'd also wager that the friendly AI (be it Schuler or someone else) disables the orbital system early on in the plot.

I'd say AI vs AI scenario is pretty cool, and would cause quite interesting things (lacking a word here): Charis siding with Schueler after earlier condemnation of Inquisition, for example. Although church AI would have it hard, since there are, by my count, four FedTech AIs right now on Safehold...
Just a random thought.

Kakai wrote:I'd say AI vs AI scenario is pretty cool, and would cause quite interesting things (lacking a word here): Charis siding with Schueler after earlier condemnation of Inquisition, for example. Although church AI would have it hard, since there are, by my count, four FedTech AIs right now on Safehold...
Just a random thought.

Thing is, we don't know what happened in the War Among the Angels. If one of the surviving AIs is a full-up milspec AI, it's going to win because Our Heroes don't have the capability to withstand it. (Note Owl's odds about trying to break into the Key of Schueler; Owl is not a particularly capable AI.)

For all we actually know, the message in the Key of Schueler isn't accurate; there was a plan, the key got left, but perhaps the plan never happened because Scheuler's actual faction failed and got exterminated before being able to put the plan into action. We know what the Wylsyns believe about the key and the message in it, but we don't know if that's factual.

The stuff under the Temple could be relatively dumb maintenance equipment and the last of the Archangel's computer hardware, never actually shut down because the last Archangel died a bit sooner than they expected.

SPOILERS for HFQ snippets. (mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Highlight to view.)
Khody went to Schueler; Khody's body came back. Maybe Schueler recorded Khody, and the faction with the OBS suspected that and that's why they were trying to get rid of the body, they weren't sure it was a body in a certain organic sense of the term. (and now Khody's an ahistorical legend to anybody educated.) (This is, btw, my prefered theory for why Aviah needs a lift; the relics of the Sisters of St. Khody need rescuing, and of course you would, after orbital bombardment, stash them in Zion where the OBS won't be used.)

We do know that the various angels and arch-angels, at the end, didn't agree on the True Purpose of the Church, and we don't know which one of those purposes -- the obvious two are "suppress tech forever" and "you have survived, my children; time to tool up and beat the Gbaba" -- the returnees are going to promulgate. It's just possible we're going to get a mighty spectral archangel, twelve stories high, in the square before the temple, promulgating the new gospel of technological advancement, and then some irritable muttering about starting ahead of schedule.

Please be careful--mark your spoilers!!