spoiler alert., question, the soul of a pica

n7axw wrote:
In our world, yes. Although perhaps rather than intelligence being the key, perhaps self-awareness would be a better mark of distinction. Humans have the capacity to reflect, to refuse to act upon their impulses, in other words to act on moral grounds rather than instinct and appetite.

Don

It appears that you believe as I do that self awareness as you describe indicates the pressence of a soul or something similar enough to make no difference. I wonder where our disagreement went?

PeterZ wrote:

n7axw wrote:
For me what matters is that Merlin and Nimue are people, persons who think, love, hate, are compssionate, laugh, mourn; in short, struggle with life like the rest of us.

The question of souls is difficult to dicuss since we all start out with our own notion of what a soul is and either accept or deny it on that basis. We're kinda like ships passing in the dark!

Don

Help me out here, Don. Isn't the bolded comments above an indication that such a being has a soul?

A comment from a atheist.

My dog has the abilities highlighted in bold.

Does that mean he has a soul as well?

I've never thought about it (as a atheist, I don't believe in souls/afterlife/etc) - but to throw a handgrenade into this discussion, what level of animals have souls? Do bugs have souls? Worms? Bacteria?

(On a sidenote - I love Sluggy's view on souls. Check out the last line of the last frame: http://www.sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/030314 )

PeterZ wrote:

n7axw wrote:
In our world, yes. Although perhaps rather than intelligence being the key, perhaps self-awareness would be a better mark of distinction. Humans have the capacity to reflect, to refuse to act upon their impulses, in other words to act on moral grounds rather than instinct and appetite.

Don

It appears that you believe as I do that self awareness as you describe indicates the pressence of a soul or something similar enough to make no difference. I wonder where our disagreement went?

I'm not sure we ever disagreed. When these discussions go ontological, I get a headache. Whether this ontological or not, I see self-awareness as an ability, an capacity to act in a certain way. If you wish to regard that capacity as evidence of the presense of a soul, I'll not object.

Don

Hi Matt,
You are right. That is sort of a handgrenade. I think that your comment is at least partially covered by my comment on self-awareness, though. Humans are not merely animals, but animals that KNOW.

As for animals and souls, the native Americans believe that everything, both animate and inanimate is indued with spirit.

As for me, on this subject I think I will invoke the three most blessed words in the English language: I don't know.

Don

n7axw wrote:Hi Matt,
You are right. That is sort of a handgrenade. I think that your comment is at least partially covered by my comment on self-awareness, though. Humans are not merely animals, but animals that KNOW.

As for animals and souls, the native Americans believe that everything, both animate and inanimate is indued with spirit.

As for me, on this subject I think I will invoke the three most blessed words in the English language: I don't know.

Don

G'Day Don,

You're right in that it's a handgrenade alright.

Consider this, some animals (i.e. dolphins) can recognise themselves in a mirror, and show signs of self awareness. Then consider a person who was born with severe brain damage, or became severely brain damaged. Which one has a soul?

If it is as you say, based on self-awareness - where is the line, that defines who has a soul and who doesn't?


I expect that we'll never know the answer to that, as some people are going to say that any creature with feelings (i.e. a dog, horse, cat, etc.) has a soul, but others are going to limit it to a certain level of self-awareness, and others are going to limit it to humans.....

People have been debating this for (literally) centuries, and I doubt if anyone every will have an answer.

(Heh, one of the perks of being an atheist - is that it's an academic question.... )

MWadwell wrote:

n7axw wrote:Hi Matt,
You are right. That is sort of a handgrenade. I think that your comment is at least partially covered by my comment on self-awareness, though. Humans are not merely animals, but animals that KNOW.

As for animals and souls, the native Americans believe that everything, both animate and inanimate is indued with spirit.

As for me, on this subject I think I will invoke the three most blessed words in the English language: I don't know.

Don

G'Day Don,

You're right in that it's a handgrenade alright.

Consider this, some animals (i.e. dolphins) can recognise themselves in a mirror, and show signs of self awareness. Then consider a person who was born with severe brain damage, or became severely brain damaged. Which one has a soul?

If it is as you say, based on self-awareness - where is the line, that defines who has a soul and who doesn't?


I expect that we'll never know the answer to that, as some people are going to say that any creature with feelings (i.e. a dog, horse, cat, etc.) has a soul, but others are going to limit it to a certain level of self-awareness, and others are going to limit it to humans.....

People have been debating this for (literally) centuries, and I doubt if anyone every will have an answer.

(Heh, one of the perks of being an atheist - is that it's an academic question.... )

Oh, I don't know about it being an academic question for an atheist. It seems to me that we are both placing our bets. Any bet you are willing to stake your life on is not academic, but existential. But hey, what do they say? You pays your money and you take your chances!

Don

@ MWadwell Love the cartoon. This Monty Python piece is my favorite religious spoof, hit it, brother Maynard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk.

As a Christin I believe that Jesus would love a good joke, and that both God and Jesus blush with shame at the actions of some of their believers. Jesus said after all the Greatest Commandment was to, "Love one another." St. Paul in his letter to the Romans 14-15 teaches tolerance of the beliefs of others and, also containing the "Judge not least ye be judged," quote. Note this is not mocking God but, the believers who don't really get it

There really was an Inquisition in Christian history, not the faith's most shining hour. Another Python the comfy chair: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSe38dzJYkY

Poker

MWadwell wrote:

PeterZ wrote:quote n7axw

For me what matters is that Merlin and Nimue are people, persons who think, love, hate, are compssionate, laugh, mourn; in short, struggle with life like the rest of us.

The question of souls is difficult to dicuss since we all start out with our own notion of what a soul is and either accept or deny it on that basis. We're kinda like ships passing in the dark!

Don end quote

Help me out here, Don. Isn't the bolded comments above an indication that such a being has a soul?

A comment from a atheist.

My dog has the abilities highlighted in bold.

Does that mean he has a soul as well?

I've never thought about it (as a atheist, I don't believe in souls/afterlife/etc) - but to throw a handgrenade into this discussion, what level of animals have souls? Do bugs have souls? Worms? Bacteria?

(On a sidenote - I love Sluggy's view on souls. Check out the last line of the last frame: http://www.sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/030314 )

=2014/03/30=

I like your viewpoint.

R
.

PeterZ wrote:The answer is simple. If a being is a moral agent, then it has a soul. By definition a moral agent can either accept or reject God's plan. I believe that ability can only be granted by God through his gift of a soul. So it follows that to exercise the ability to make moral choices is to display the influence of a soul on an intelligence.