Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD

n7axw wrote:

brnicholas wrote:Do we even know that with any confidence? Jathmar's rifle worked differently in Portalis depending on if Jathmar or an Arcanan was holding it. Would it have worked differently too if Sharonans instead of Arcanans were watching? How about if there were more Sharonans within 20 miles of where he was standing then Arcanans? If yes, will portals interfere with the observer effects?

I ask all those questions because what we know is that guns/talents/gifts get weaker as individuals move to the other sides home worlds. We don't know what will happen if large groups, like invading armies, made the same trip.

Nicholas

It is how it appears at this time. One would think that even large armies would be hugely outnumbered by demographics on an opponents world. For example an army of 100,000 would be a rounding error on a world of 10 billion. And we have no textev to suggest that the effect would be localized to where an army would be rather than generally true of that world as a whole.

So...given what textev there is my guess would be that yes, it would be true that an army's weapons on its opponent's world would not work effectively.

But you are right to point out that it is only speculation and confidence either way would be limited.

Don

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We appear to be in agreement. The only comment I wanted to add, is that you have understated the size of the invading army I was thinking of by a couple of orders of magnitude.

Nicholas

Reply at bottom.

brnicholas wrote:

n7axw wrote:
For example an army of *100,000* would be a rounding error
on a world of 10 billion. And we have no textev to suggest
that the effect would be localized to where an army would be
rather than generally true of that world as a whole.

So...given what textev there is my guess would be that yes, it would be true that an army's weapons on its opponent's world would not work effectively.

But you are right to point out that it is only speculation and confidence either way would be limited.

Don

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We appear to be in agreement. The only comment I wanted to add,
is that you have *understated* the size of the invading army
I was thinking of by *a couple of orders of magnitude.*

Nicholas

That much, Nicholas? "a couple of orders of magnitude?"
Were you really thinking of an army of ten million?
Supplied through many Portals, one at a time?
The Russians, Germans, and Chinese have used armies of two,
three, or even five million at a time, BUT
spread across a thousand-mile front,
AND supplied from a few hundred miles away.

HTM

The Shurkalans and Arpathians can get there; they're both
close enough, and have significant numbers of troops.
The Einathans are too far away, and too few.

Ternath is best situated,

(remember that this is the SPOILER THREAD!)

but note that by the end of the book,
all three Fifth Corps divisions are in the Outworlds,
at the Front.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:

n7axw wrote:
Yeah, but it does have the makings of a thriller. Imagine Andrin having to get out of Tajvana before Chava's troops get there or having the Ternathian army arrive in the nick of time to foil the scheme...

Don

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I would rather the cavalry be Einathian marines called in by King Juni, Shurkalan dragoons redirected by a canny commander who recognized the Uromathian troop deployments and of course the combined Septs of Arpathia come to pay their respects to their new Emperor.

I do believe I agree with Nicholas. I would add that armies of 10 million is a slight misnomer. I suspect what those forces will be are military colonies moving forward as new universes are conquered.

Those invading colonies will have all the tools to develop virgin universes to some minimum level and move forward. The newly developed universe can take on new human, cetacean and simian colonists on a more permanent bases. Because Sharona's industry is more conducive to employing every member of its society, the initial investment to grow many new universes is much lower that it would be for Arcana.

As a long term strategy this should work very well for Sharona, assuming they continue to fight after this story arc.

King Juni's force has been moving since the wedding. Sure it is small, but they are more symbolic anyway.

Besides, unless Uromathia either apart from Chava or with Chava acquiesces to the authority of the Sharonan Empire, the war against Arcana is toast. One way or another Uromathia has to submit to the Empire. The best way from my perspective is for the non-Ternathian forces of the Empire to do the spanking and forceful persuasion of Uromathia/Chava.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:The Shurkalans and Arpathians can get there; they're both
close enough, and have significant numbers of troops.
The Einathans are too far away, and too few.

Ternath is best situated,

(remember that this is the SPOILER THREAD!)

but note that by the end of the book,
all three Fifth Corps divisions are in the Outworlds,
at the Front.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:I would rather the cavalry be Einathian marines called in by King Juni, Shurkalan dragoons redirected by a canny commander who recognized the Uromathian troop deployments and of course the combined Septs of Arpathia come to pay their respects to their new Emperor.

We have speculated whether an Empress Andrin,
or a Heir Apparent Andrin, would have Guards able
to protect her from a Busar husband.

Textev from page 111:
"Id rather not need to have Imperial Guardsman defend
you from your own consort, Your Highness," Dulan added.

I conclude that, although they wouldn't like to need to,
they could attempt it, with some hope of success.

But the question is moot.

HTM

I wonder what Don thinks. He gave us the 100,000 number.

Me, I feel that 10 million civilian men, women, and children,
are at least as tough to move and supply as that many soldiers.

As for the numbers all Sharona is moving during the time-span
of R2H, we start with Fifth Corp. Two IDs @12,000,
one DD @10,000, make 34,000 on paper, + corps troops,
- number understrength, + extra men hastily summoned from
elsewhere to bring units up-to-strength. Say 40,000.
Then there are some PAAF units which might be used, other units
such as Markan's Brigade and the Yerthak guns, etc.

Next count the TTE. Several construction crews, @2,000 apiece.
Train crews, supply crews, maybe 10,000 in all.
Maybe 25,000.

I'd guess that 100K Sharonan soldiers and workers beyond Salym,
by the end of R2H, is a high estimate.
But my guesses are more conservative than others of us,
so call it 200,000 (two hundred thousand Sharonan men) .

But, more arrive every day.
Maybe there will be ten million, in ten years.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:I do believe I agree with Nicholas. I would add that armies of 10 million is a slight misnomer. I suspect what those forces will be are military colonies moving forward as new universes are conquered.

Those invading colonies will have all the tools to develop virgin universes to some minimum level and move forward. The newly developed universe can take on new human, cetacean and simian colonists on a more permanent bases. Because Sharona's industry is more conducive to employing every member of its society, the initial investment to grow many new universes is much lower that it would be for Arcana.

As a long term strategy this should work very well for Sharona, assuming they continue to fight after this story arc.

IIRC nothing has been mentioned about Arcanan reenforcements.
Whyever not?

The Ternath Fifth Corps was ordered to the Front within three
days after news was received on Sharona. Other units, from
other countries, have also been moved.

By the time Jasak's party reaches Portalis, Union officials
have had the news for at least two weeks, maybe a month.
The book lasts four more months (January-April).
I overlooked any mention of *anyone* being sent forward from
Portalis, Arcana, New Arcana, or any bases along the way.
No senior officers to take over command at the front,
superceding mul Gurthak and Harshu.
No more soldiers, not a division, not a battalion or platoon.
No one.

Note that Division-Captain chan Geraith superceded chan
Skithrik and Markan as soon as he reached Traisum. It was he
who made the decision to exchange the TTE crew for the Fort
Salby prisoners. In turn he is superceded by his Corps-Captain,
chan Rowlan, before the Turning Movement is completed.
Their opponents are still 2,000 mul Gurthak & 2,000 Harshu!

Gurthak should have been removed for Insufficient Reporting,
but he should already have been superceded by a 5,000,
a Ten Thousand, and even a Twenty Thousand - or higher.
Automatically! Standard Military Proceedure.

What is the High Commanderie doing, besides Courts of Inquiry?

HTM

Given the length of distance from home each side's more populated worlds are from the other side, there is no way that either side could sustain armies in the millions that far away from their major supply bases. The tech required for the logistics simply is not there.

About the only way either side could work its way into its enemy's homeland would be to conquer, occupy successive universes and build industrial capacity capable of supporting the military needed for the next step, working toward the objective.

That would take generations and the militarization of society that would happen as a result of such an effort would not be a good thing.

Don

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Howard T. Map-addict wrote:I wonder what Don thinks. He gave us the 100,000 number.

Me, I feel that 10 million civilian men, women, and children,
are at least as tough to move and supply as that many soldiers.

As for the numbers all Sharona is moving during the time-span
of R2H, we start with Fifth Corp. Two IDs @12,000,
one DD @10,000, make 34,000 on paper, + corps troops,
- number understrength, + extra men hastily summoned from
elsewhere to bring units up-to-strength. Say 40,000.
Then there are some PAAF units which might be used, other units
such as Markan's Brigade and the Yerthak guns, etc.

Next count the TTE. Several construction crews, @2,000 apiece.
Train crews, supply crews, maybe 10,000 in all.
Maybe 25,000.

I'd guess that 100K Sharonan soldiers and workers beyond Salym,
by the end of R2H, is a high estimate.
But my guesses are more conservative than others of us,
so call it 200,000 (two hundred thousand Sharonan men) .

But, more arrive every day.
Maybe there will be ten million, in ten years.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:I do believe I agree with Nicholas. I would add that armies of 10 million is a slight misnomer. I suspect what those forces will be are military colonies moving forward as new universes are conquered.

Those invading colonies will have all the tools to develop virgin universes to some minimum level and move forward. The newly developed universe can take on new human, cetacean and simian colonists on a more permanent bases. Because Sharona's industry is more conducive to employing every member of its society, the initial investment to grow many new universes is much lower that it would be for Arcana.

As a long term strategy this should work very well for Sharona, assuming they continue to fight after this story arc.

The 100,000 figure was pulled from thin air. Realisticly I would expect the figure to be much smaller. That figure was only used to illustrate that even that sized army wouldn't be large enough to impact the physics on a heavily populated enemy world.

Currently neither side could sustain anything larger than a raiding force that far from home.

Don

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