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Relative size of combatants

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by louisr   » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:11 pm

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You still don't seem to be grasping the topography properly. The cliff was created by the portal, and marks the plane. Anybody on the cliff face will be on the Arcanan side, and easy meat for their weapons.

Mil-tech bard wrote:>Face Palm<

If the cliff is on the _Sharonan side_ of the portal.

It's top is unengagable by Arcanian direct fire weapons.

Magic does not work through a portal.

Projectile weapons do.

The cliff dead zone people are speaking of is more of an abattoir for gravity delivered Sharonan high explosives or the rock slide those high explosives can deliver to positions underneath the tops of the cliffs.

Worse, predictive distance viewer talents can get close ups of Arcanians at the bottom of the cliffs on the Sharonan side for diagonal howitzer & mortar shoots across the face of the portal with properly timed shrapnel bursts.

NB: Look up "abattoir" again.

The 4.5 (?) inch Sharonan mortars are more than sufficient to clear the base of the cliffs on the Sharonan side of the portal of any infantry or field dragon equipped Arcanian infantry force trying to shoot at Sharonan artillery observers on top of the cliffs.

And any Arcanian infantry on the cliffs on the Sharonan side are dead meat for talent directed indirect artillery fire.

Once the Sharonans have secured the cliff tops and cleared the bottom of the cliffs of field and infantry dragons. They can repel down the cliffs, immune to Sharonan dragon fire from the other side of the portal.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by brnicholas   » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:08 pm

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Your technique of placing mortars slightly behind the cliff and firing them across the portal to close the dead zone is a good one. It appears to me that it will work very well. When combined with the technique of putting a mirror on a stick and extending that through the portal to get a look at the bottom of the cliff, although seeing anything that way at 3000 yards distance might be difficult, it should let the Sharonans prevent the resupply of any forces at the base of the cliff and dominate by fire the approaches to the cut from Karys and thus successfully assault the cut.

I don't think it affects the point I was making when I initially brought the dead zone behind the cliffs up. Then I was saying that the combination of having dragons approach the portal from the narrow side, the dead zone behind the cliffs and tunnels through the cliffs would give the Arcanans a secure supply line to the troops defending the approaches to the Traisum/Karys portal and thus make securing the top of said cliff and the cut much much more difficult. I think that point continues to stand since without control of the top of the cliff Sharona can neither place the mortars your plan calls for nor see what is going on at the bottom of the cliff.

Nicholas

Mil-tech bard wrote:>Face Palm<

If the cliff is on the _Sharonan side_ of the portal.

It's top is unengagable by Arcanian direct fire weapons.

Magic does not work through a portal.

Projectile weapons do.

The cliff dead zone people are speaking of is more of an abattoir for gravity delivered Sharonan high explosives or the rock slide those high explosives can deliver to positions underneath the tops of the cliffs.

Worse, predictive distance viewer talents can get close ups of Arcanians at the bottom of the cliffs on the Sharonan side for diagonal howitzer & mortar shoots across the face of the portal with properly timed shrapnel bursts.

NB: Look up "abattoir" again.

The 4.5 (?) inch Sharonan mortars are more than sufficient to clear the base of the cliffs on the Sharonan side of the portal of any infantry or field dragon equipped Arcanian infantry force trying to shoot at Sharonan artillery observers on top of the cliffs.

And any Arcanian infantry on the cliffs on the Sharonan side are dead meat for talent directed indirect artillery fire.

Once the Sharonans have secured the cliff tops and cleared the bottom of the cliffs of field and infantry dragons. They can repel down the cliffs, immune to Sharonan dragon fire from the other side of the portal.
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Re: Recon crystal was: Relative size of combatants
Post by brnicholas   » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:13 pm

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You are absolutely right that the authors can do whatever the plot requires. If chan Geraith's point force needs to be spotted early the Arcanans have the technology to do that. If it needs to surprise the Arcanans than any or all of Fickle Lady Luck, Arcanan arrogance or Arcanan shortages of material due to supply problems can be used to explain why they don't.

As for the communication delays, you are right that there will be a significant delay between when the recon crystal records the Sharonans and when the Arcanans realize what they have seen but this is one case where Arcanan movement speed trumps Sharonan communication speed. Recon Gryphons surely have long patrol ranges, a 24 hour delay in knowing what is on the crystal isn't a big deal (although it will make them harder to find and attack) if the Sharonans are still two or three weeks from being ready to attack when they are spotted.

Nicholas

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Yes, the recon crystal might record them.

And then the beast carrying it must (eventually)
return to base, where a handler must take it and
download the contents, which must then be analyzed.

But the dragon's pilot can look through its eyes,
see whatever it sees, and then need only notice
what his beast sees, and decide what to do about it.

The Distance Viewer and Plotter have better
communications than that, standing next to them.

Still, there is plenty of room for W&P to tell the
story as the plot requires.

HTM

brnicholas wrote:{snip - htm}
Hell's Gate chapter 17 tells us "it was the rare Plotter who could reach beyond four or five miles." Even if chan Geraith has one with a 10 mile range a recon crystal mounted on a dragon or gryphon will detect the column well before that and image analysis spellware ought to pick mounted men out.

Nicholas
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:20 pm

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No. The cut must have begun well back from the portal. The cliff frames the Cut, like a channel with train track switchbacks inside it. As the tracks switchback and forth from the top to the bottom it moves closer to the portal. It reaches the portal at the bottom.

I am not quite sure how wide the Cut actually is. When they describe the Cut, they are describing the channel. The are not describing cut made by the Portal but the channel cut by the Sharonan engineers.

So to hit anything in the Cut with spells the caster or dragon must be in the cut and across the portal. Granted there is lots of room for dragons top fly in and out. Still, the angle from the base to anywhere on the tracks up the Cut is sharp enough to deprive those at the notion with line of sight away from the edge. At the top anyone can drop explosives down on those in the Cut.

Looking from above the Cut is like looking down an open box with one side/wall as the portal. The tracks wind down along an incline that moves towards the portal. Any Sharonan at the top on a wall perpendicular to the portal can set up artillery and machine gun bunkers on their side of the portal. They can drop all sorts of nasty things to who or whatever tries to climb up the Cut. Dragon would have attack from the Sharonan side as the portal as the breath wont cross the portal. Attacking from the Arcanan side opens the attacker to machine gun fire well before they can respond.



louisr wrote:You still don't seem to be grasping the topography properly. The cliff was created by the portal, and marks the plane. Anybody on the cliff face will be on the Arcanan side, and easy meat for their weapons.

Mil-tech bard wrote:>Face Palm<

If the cliff is on the _Sharonan side_ of the portal.

It's top is unengagable by Arcanian direct fire weapons.

Magic does not work through a portal.

Projectile weapons do.

The cliff dead zone people are speaking of is more of an abattoir for gravity delivered Sharonan high explosives or the rock slide those high explosives can deliver to positions underneath the tops of the cliffs.

Worse, predictive distance viewer talents can get close ups of Arcanians at the bottom of the cliffs on the Sharonan side for diagonal howitzer & mortar shoots across the face of the portal with properly timed shrapnel bursts.

NB: Look up "abattoir" again.

The 4.5 (?) inch Sharonan mortars are more than sufficient to clear the base of the cliffs on the Sharonan side of the portal of any infantry or field dragon equipped Arcanian infantry force trying to shoot at Sharonan artillery observers on top of the cliffs.

And any Arcanian infantry on the cliffs on the Sharonan side are dead meat for talent directed indirect artillery fire.

Once the Sharonans have secured the cliff tops and cleared the bottom of the cliffs of field and infantry dragons. They can repel down the cliffs, immune to Sharonan dragon fire from the other side of the portal.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Astelon   » Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:52 am

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The cut is described fully in the prologue to HHNF as Darcel approaches and then travels up it. It is five miles long, with an approach ramp in KArys that is four miles long. The grade is steep. No mention of any switchbacks. The cut may be perfectly straight (or close to it), and the description seems to support this. It likely looks more like a long narrow channel through the rock and dirt when viewed from above.

The width of the cut is discussed as: wide enough for a four-track-right-of-way and a double-wide road for wheeled traffic." Can anyone make a guess as to how many feet that might be? Say sixteen for the double wide road, plus the track.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:04 am

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Thank you. I did not read that part as carefully as I should have, it seems. I had some trouble envisioning it at first and second read.

The Karys ramp is four miles long. I suspect that was built in large part from the debris from the actual cut. So, artillery could still be set up from the Sharona side and cover the entire ramp into Karys. Those four miles are open to direct fire spells and dragon strafing. Of course artillery at the top of the cut could provide anti-dragon cover.

Unless the Arcanans blew the ramp, the Sharonans could leap frog down the ramp. Mines would take their toll and slow down the process, but the Arcanans couldn't hold the Cut.

Astelon wrote:The cut is described fully in the prologue to HHNF as Darcel approaches and then travels up it. It is five miles long, with an approach ramp in KArys that is four miles long. The grade is steep. No mention of any switchbacks. The cut may be perfectly straight (or close to it), and the description seems to support this. It likely looks more like a long narrow channel through the rock and dirt when viewed from above.

The width of the cut is discussed as: wide enough for a four-track-right-of-way and a double-wide road for wheeled traffic." Can anyone make a guess as to how many feet that might be? Say sixteen for the double wide road, plus the track.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by bkwormlisa   » Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:51 pm

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I think you and I have very different images of the TTE Traisum Cut for the railroad. If I'm reading you correctly, you think they took the debris that fell off the bisected cliff and built a ramp using those debris?

Here's the exact quote from HHNF Prologue:
Most people who saw it from the Karys side for the first time felt a peculiar sense of disorientation. It was something the human eye and the human mind weren’t trained to expect: an absolutely vertical, glassy-smooth cliff over a half-mile high at its shortest point and four and a half miles wide.

The good news was that Karys was outbound from Sharona. That had allowed the Trans-Temporal Express’ construction crews to come at it from the slopes of Mount Karek rather than straight out of the mountain’s heart. The portal was actually located east of the mountain’s crest, which made the impossible cliff several hundred feet shorter from the Karys side and the approach slope perhaps three or four miles shorter from the Traisum side. TTE’s engineers were accustomed to stupendous construction projects fit to dwarf the Grand Ternathian Canal or New Farnal Canal, but this one had been a stretch even for them. It had taken them years (and more tons of dynamite than Kinlafia cared to contemplate) to complete, and all meaningful exploration down-chain from Traisum had been bottlenecked until they’d finally finished it. The cut was five miles long, eighteen hundred feet deep where its Karys terminus met the top of the approach ramp, and wide enough for a four-track right-of-way and a double-wide road for wheeled traffic. The grade, needless to say, was steep.

Now the locomotive chuffed more noisily than ever, laboring as it started into that deep, shadowed gulf of stone. Its smoke plume fumed up, adding its own fresh coat of grime and soot to the stains already marking the cut’s rocky sides, and he heard the haunting beauty of the whistle singing its warning.

My vision of it (based on it being called the Traisum Cut and Kinlafia telling us they used more tons of dynamite than he cared to think about) is that the TTE blasted out a section of the vertical cliff, making what is effectively a tunnel that's open on one side. So there are no switchbacks and little or no built-up ramp of any kind, just a steeply graded slope cut into the mountain. I admit, I'm not sure what "eighteen hundred feet deep where its Karys terminus met the top of the approach ramp" means; I would guess that there's a small ramp built up from the lower side to the Cut itself, but it's not clear to me.

I should add that they started from the top of the cliff, so they weren't using any construction materials that were at the bottom of the cliff, like collapsed rock would be. Nor did they have any real way to support a ramp, which has to be built from the bottom up, not the top down.

If I'm right, any train actually traveling in the Cut is on the Sharonian side of the portal, with all that means to Talents and magic. I've always assumed that there's some kind of cantilevered platform or little house at the top for a Voice to use when sending or receiving messages, but other than that, they probably don't have any way to cross to the Arcanan side of the portal until they reach the bottom, short of leaning over the edge.

PeterZ wrote:Thank you. I did not read that part as carefully as I should have, it seems. I had some trouble envisioning it at first and second read.

The Karys ramp is four miles long. I suspect that was built in large part from the debris from the actual cut. So, artillery could still be set up from the Sharona side and cover the entire ramp into Karys. Those four miles are open to direct fire spells and dragon strafing. Of course artillery at the top of the cut could provide anti-dragon cover.

Unless the Arcanans blew the ramp, the Sharonans could leap frog down the ramp. Mines would take their toll and slow down the process, but the Arcanans couldn't hold the Cut.

Astelon wrote:The cut is described fully in the prologue to HHNF as Darcel approaches and then travels up it. It is five miles long, with an approach ramp in KArys that is four miles long. The grade is steep. No mention of any switchbacks. The cut may be perfectly straight (or close to it), and the description seems to support this. It likely looks more like a long narrow channel through the rock and dirt when viewed from above.

The width of the cut is discussed as: wide enough for a four-track-right-of-way and a double-wide road for wheeled traffic." Can anyone make a guess as to how many feet that might be? Say sixteen for the double wide road, plus the track.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:23 pm

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You still don't seem to be grasping the topography properly. The cliff was created by the portal, and marks the plane. Anybody on the cliff face will be on the Arcanan side, and easy meat for their weapons.


Umm...No.

There is this thing called erosion at work here.

The beach at the cliffs of Dover is not at the edge of the cliff top.

And while the original cut of the cliff was at the portal edge from top to bottom. The significant portion of a planetary atmosphere that blew through after the portal formed -- Plus the basic structural weakness of the portal cut once a "center of a mountain...isn't" -- has ensured that the tops of the Ft Salby cliff is very much on the Sharonan side.

And the cliff bottom debris field from the protracted hurricane (+++) winds pulling material through the portal and collapsing material from the cliff top to the bottom is very much on the Arcanian side.

My mind boggles the thought of a miles wide air conditioning condenser with a planetary atmosphere worth of gas moving through it.

I don't even want to think how much water went through the portal from the low pressure system that developed there during the planetary pressure equalization.

And then froze as it went through the portal from a higher to lower pressure almost instantly.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:45 pm

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brnicholas wrote:I don't think it affects the point I was making when I initially brought the dead zone behind the cliffs up. Then I was saying that the combination of having dragons approach the portal from the narrow side, the dead zone behind the cliffs and tunnels through the cliffs would give the Arcanans a secure supply line to the troops defending the approaches to the Traisum/Karys portal and thus make securing the top of said cliff and the cut much much more difficult. I think that point continues to stand since without control of the top of the cliff Sharona can neither place the mortars your plan calls for nor see what is going on at the bottom of the cliff.
Ok, if the Arcanans have a quick way to use magic to bore supply tunnels to support solid rock defensive bunkers cut into the mountain side that would take the Sharonan forces much longer to dig out.

We don't really have any details on whether Arcana has supernaturally fast tunnel boring spells. But it's a lot of rock to cut through to put a tunnel from (presumably) the base of the cliff (ground level on the Arcana side of the portal) all the way to spots on the face of the mountain's Sharonan side. I tend to doubt they've got that capability -- at least all the way out on the front lines. But I could certainly be wrong about that.


But at least I can see real advantages for Arcana if they can get tunnels.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:14 am

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Mil-tech bard wrote:And the cliff bottom debris field from the protracted hurricane (+++) winds pulling material through the portal and collapsing material from the cliff top to the bottom is very much on the Arcanian side.

My mind boggles the thought of a miles wide air conditioning condenser with a planetary atmosphere worth of gas moving through it.

I don't even want to think how much water went through the portal from the low pressure system that developed there during the planetary pressure equalization.

And then froze as it went through the portal from a higher to lower pressure almost instantly.
Um, both sides had pre-existing atmosphere. So it's not like the air was rushing into a vacuum when the portal formed.

We have seen an example of sustained winds when a portal opened between a very low altitude spot on one planet, and a very high altitude spot on another. But that doesn't seem to be the case here (would have been if the portal had opened at the surface of the mountain peak though)

As it is from the prolog we know that ground level on the Karys side is about 700 ft above sea level (14.33 PSI stp). And mountains on the Traisum had peaks around 4,6000 feet -- but 3,000+ feet of cliff are exposed. So the "ground level" of the portal is 4,600 - 3,000 = about 1,600 feet above sea level (13.87 PSI stp). We're only talking about 0.46 PSI difference (or a 31 millibar drop). That seems a very long way from creating hurricane force winds.


Would there be some erosion and fallen rock? Sure. But I don't think it's going to be significant parts of the cliff-side.
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