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Relative size of combatants

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:07 pm

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This is Division-Captain Arlos chan Geraith from RTH Official Snippet #3


“I think we also have to assume that they’ve captured accurate maps of both the Karys and Kelsayr Chains,” chan Geraith pointed out. “If they have, they probably realize just how unimproved both chains are beyond Karys and Lashai, not to mention the water gap here in Traisum. Where Kelsayr’s concerned, they’ll probably assume — logically — that six thousand miles of ocean and another forty-six hundred miles overland must constitute a pretty severe bottleneck here in Traisum, and they’ll evaluate our mobility beyond the railheads on the basis of piss-poor roads and trails, wagons, and pack animals. By the same token, even if Therahk’s completely correct about Harshu’s not realizing how much we can transport by rail, I’ll guarantee you he does realize we can move one hell of a lot more in a freight car than we could in a six-horse wagon down a dirt trail. So if I were him, and if I could move my entire army four thousand miles in less than two weeks, I wouldn’t be especially worried by the possibility of being flanked on a seventeen thousand-mile march by an enemy restricted to horse-drawn transport. Even if he knows about the shipyard at Renaiyrton and the rail line through Kelsayr and Lashai, he’ll figure he has plenty of defensive depth on that front.”



and later...


“My mother always used to tell me a little knowledge is a dangerous thing,” he said. “And she used to say it’s not what you don’t know is so that hurts you; it’s what you think you know that isn’t so. At the moment, Harshu knows a lot more about us than we know about him, but no Arcanan’s ever so much as heard of a Bison. I realize seventeen thousand miles is a long way, but we’ve got over thirty-five hundred miles of rail line clear across Kelsayr and Lashai and TTE’s already laying track in Resym. For that matter, its advanced work crews are cutting and grading roadbed over a hundred miles down-chain from the current railhead. Since we haven’t lost Voice contact with them yet but we have lost contact with the portal forts in Nairsom and on Lake Wernisk in Resym, I’m inclined to think that’s as far up-chain as they’ve gotten. What it means from our current perspective is that it’s only about seven thousand miles cross-country from the railhead to Hell’s Gate as opposed to four thousand miles going via Karys. For that matter, it’s barely three thousand miles to Thermyn, and at least until Harshu is heavily reinforced, the Cut works both ways as a defensive feature. For that matter,” the division-captain’s already thin smile became a razor, “he may just find it costing him more than he expects to get his dragons through the portal here even after he’s reinforced.”


and finally...


We send along a full recon section, complete with a Mapper, a half-dozen Plotters to keep an eye on the sky for dragons, and a good Distance Viewer or two to make it harder than hell for the Arcanans to see them coming even if they’re mounting standing patrols of dragons around the portals.


Three things jump out at me.

1. The Sharonanas have far more ground mobility than the Arcanians give them credit for, both from the rail ways and from steam powered vehicles extending from the railways.

2. There are indeed railway building units behind Arcanian lines in the secondary chain from Hells Gate that include voices. Railway units that have been by-passed and are in Voice communication with the Tenarthian Army relief column. And likely these railway building detachments have steam trains, heavy equipment, rail cars and loose rails to armor them. >tum tee tum tee dum<

3. Arcanians have utterly no idea how badly they can be out scouted by Sharonan talents on the ground. Nor do they realize how well the Sharonans can camouflage themselves from aerial surveillance AKA from distance viewers. This has implications both in the Cut as well as the secondary chain.
Last edited by Mil-tech bard on Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by SCC   » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:33 pm

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Let me double check this. The portal sits on a cliff, and the cut runs towards the cliff, and if it kept going it would go over it?
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by brnicholas   » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:40 pm

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I agree with most of what you said and so removed it. As regards the first paragraph I left, my impression is that Harshu is quite determined to hold the cut and thus has his main force positioned to defend it. He may have changed his mind but we have less reason to think that he has then we have to think that Arcana has tunneling spells.

As for a force at the base of the cliff being trapped there, I don't think the Sharonans can do what you are talking about without building platforms over the edge of both sides the cliff and mounting machine guns or artillery on them (and thus exposing them to Arcanan fire). A dragon in Karys can approach the portal from the narrow side and be immune to fire from a gun positioned almost anywhere in Traisum and then drop under the cliff and supply (or evacuate) those troops. To give you an image the dashes are the portal and the ds are the dead zone I believe exists to fire from Traisum dddd-------------------dddd.

Nicholas
Astelon wrote:I am unsure of exactly where Harshu has left forces, though leaving pickets to guard the Cut (and send warning of any attack) in Traisum wouldn't surprise me, in fact it would be a smart thing to do. Those forces can probably be completely dealt with, once you have secured the portal sufficiently to make flying dragons through it serious risk. I doubt it would even be difficult unless, Harshu wanted to leave a large force where it could potentially be cut off and destroyed, or where he would have to risk precious transport dragons to evacuate it.

...snipped...

If Harshu has parked a force in the dead zone at the base of the cliff, that force is likely to find itself trapped in that spot, once chan Geraith gains complete control of the portal access. They won't be able to pull out without coming under artillery fire sufficient to kill transport dragons, from the Traisum side of the portal. That force will still be a danger to any attack down the Cut, and to the Cut itself. However, without their mobility advantage, they are likely to be destroyed eventually.

...snipped...
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:11 pm

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You underestimate the implications of a predictive distance viewer on the other side of the portal calling down fire of Big Bertha class railway guns.

The Big Berthas took down the Belgian reinforced concrete border forts darned quick.

Two options suggest themselves here.

1. Hit the lips of the cliff to cause rock falls -- use your imagination.

2. Timed fuse detonations of shrapnel shells.

The "dead zone" may be more a DEATH ZONE simply based on bigger and higher trajectory railway sized Sharonan howitzers/mortars paired with distance viewers on the other side of the gate/portal.


brnicholas wrote:I agree with most of what you said and so removed it. As regards the first paragraph I left, my impression is that Harshu is quite determined to hold the cut and thus has his main force positioned to defend it. He may have changed his mind but we have less reason to think that he has then we have to think that Arcana has tunneling spells.

As for a force at the base of the cliff being trapped there, I don't think the Sharonans can do what you are talking about without building platforms over the edge of both sides the cliff and mounting machine guns or artillery on them (and thus exposing them to Arcanan fire). A dragon in Karys can approach the portal from the narrow side and be immune to fire from a gun positioned almost anywhere in Traisum and then drop under the cliff and supply (or evacuate) those troops. To give you an image the dashes are the portal and the ds are the dead zone I believe exists to fire from Traisum dddd-------------------dddd.

Nicholas
Astelon wrote:I am unsure of exactly where Harshu has left forces, though leaving pickets to guard the Cut (and send warning of any attack) in Traisum wouldn't surprise me, in fact it would be a smart thing to do. Those forces can probably be completely dealt with, once you have secured the portal sufficiently to make flying dragons through it serious risk. I doubt it would even be difficult unless, Harshu wanted to leave a large force where it could potentially be cut off and destroyed, or where he would have to risk precious transport dragons to evacuate it.

...snipped...

If Harshu has parked a force in the dead zone at the base of the cliff, that force is likely to find itself trapped in that spot, once chan Geraith gains complete control of the portal access. They won't be able to pull out without coming under artillery fire sufficient to kill transport dragons, from the Traisum side of the portal. That force will still be a danger to any attack down the Cut, and to the Cut itself. However, without their mobility advantage, they are likely to be destroyed eventually.

...snipped...
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Astelon   » Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:38 pm

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Mil-tech bard wrote:You underestimate the implications of a predictive distance viewer on the other side of the portal calling down fire of Big Bertha class railway guns.


Using a distance viewer to direct fire through a portal won't work, talents don't function through a portal. If you mean place a force in Karys then engage with huge guns, we are back to the problem of force an assault through the Cut. The rock fall idea has merit, but I suspect that timed fused shrapnel shells and makeshift bombs will be more effective.

brnicholas wrote:As for a force at the base of the cliff being trapped there, I don't think the Sharonans can do what you are talking about without building platforms over the edge of both sides the cliff and mounting machine guns or artillery on them (and thus exposing them to Arcanan fire)


I didn't make it clear, the idea of trapping the force has to work in conjunction with the bomb idea. Spotters along the portal looking over cliffs, and then ducking back, will see a dragon trying to land for an evacuation, and one flicker message later they can drop a bomb, or artillery shell, at the suspected landing locations. The likely hood that they could severely injure a dragon before it could load the men it is trying to save and take off again is high.

No platforms and no firing downwards, save the artillery and machine guns for the ones trying to attack you, and any that come in from the wrong angle. The artillery is also necessary if the force tries to escape on the ground. Some of that force may escape, but most of it will be captured or destroyed. That is assuming you manage to take the portal without the force pulling back first.

SCC wrote:Let me double check this. The portal sits on a cliff, and the cut runs towards the cliff, and if it kept going it would go over it?


The portal in Traisum bisects a mountain. In Karys it sits in a flat plain. Without the Cut you have a three thousand foot drop (HHNF Prologue) to go from Traisum to Karys. From Karys you see "an absolutely vertical, glassy-smooth cliff over a half-mile high at its shortest point and four an a half miles wide."

The cut is also five miles long (no machine gun is going to reach the entire distance) eighteen hundred feet deep where its Karys terminus meets the top of the approach ramp, and has a steep grade. So it appears there is a rather substantial ramp in Karys that would also have to be protected, or be a target for damage for the arcanans
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by SCC   » Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:19 am

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OK, thanks, the descriptions we've been getting of the cut and the gate haven't been making much sense and that's because I got the impression that the terrain was at the same height for both approaches, this changes it.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:14 am

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Regards this --


Using a distance viewer to direct fire through a portal won't work, talents don't function through a portal. If you mean place a force in Karys then engage with huge guns, we are back to the problem of force an assault through the Cut. The rock fall idea has merit, but I suspect that timed fused shrapnel shells and makeshift bombs will be more effective.


I was unclear.

"On the other side" implies on the other side of the portal from Ft Salby, AKA on the Arcanian held side.

With a flicker-physical messenger-flicker relay through the portal, the Sharonan's can use a distance viewer on the Arcanian side to monitor movements and adjust artillery in near-real time.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by brnicholas   » Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:15 pm

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Several questions:

Since the Arcanans are on the Karys side of the portal and control the cut, the only way someone on foot can access the portal, how do you expect the Sharonans to keep their distance viewer and messengers alive?

Where do you expect the Sharonans to get Big Bertha class railway guns? That they have them I don't doubt. That they are part of the artillery present at Fort Salby or coming up with the mechanized corps seems very unlikely.

How wide of a dead zone is a 3000 foot cliff going to create even for mortars? I'm expecting something fairly wide, especially since the terrain will keep larger guns back from the portal. If it is narrow enough things thrown off the top of the cliff will reach the whole area that will force me to change my thinking.

Shouldn't the shrapnel from shrapnel shells have the same basic momentum as the shell itself? If so Sharona can't get shrapnel into the dead zone in useful quantities any more then it can get shells in there.

I'm open to being convinced but you haven't managed it yet.

Nicholas

PS - As a nitpick, as I understand things the Sharonans do not have "railway building units behind Arcanian lines in the secondary chain from Hells Gate that include voices. Railway units that have been by-passed and are in Voice communication with the Tenarthian Army relief column." The Arcanan lines in the secondary chain are at the Nairson/Resym portal while the railway building units are on the Sharonan side of those lines in Resym.

Mil-tech bard wrote:You underestimate the implications of a predictive distance viewer on the other side of the portal calling down fire of Big Bertha class railway guns.

The Big Berthas took down the Belgian reinforced concrete border forts darned quick.

Two options suggest themselves here.

1. Hit the lips of the cliff to cause rock falls -- use your imagination.

2. Timed fuse detonations of shrapnel shells.

The "dead zone" may be more a DEATH ZONE simply based on bigger and higher trajectory railway sized Sharonan howitzers/mortars paired with distance viewers on the other side of the gate/portal.


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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Mil-tech bard   » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:39 pm

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>>Where do you expect the Sharonans to get Big Bertha class railway guns? That they have them I don't doubt.

By Rail from Sharona.


>>That they are part of the artillery present at Fort Salby or coming up with the mechanized corps seems very unlikely.


Once the battle of Ft Salby was underway, deployment orders would have followed shortly for heavy railway guns/mortars without special requests.

The Termanthian Army General Staff can read elevation lines on maps, after all.


>>How wide of a dead zone is a 3000 foot cliff going to create even for mortars?

Mortar/howitzer dead zones for hitting the top of the cliff don't exist.

See:

-----------------;
-----------------;<---Portal Face &
-----------------;.. Dis V. persp.
-----------------.--.
Impact here --->.;--.<--- Shell Traj.
=================;---.
=================;---.
=================;<---.------Cliff Face
=================;----.
=================;-----.
=================;-----.<---Sharonan Mortar


And you are forgetting that distance viewers and flickers work through rock as well as air.

All the Sharonans have to do is get a foot hold on the other side of the portal. They can burrow into a cliff wall and use semaphore thru the cut visually to begin with.

Later they can cut a tunnel.

Hell, they can cut a series of tunnels anywhere along the entire portal face from both perspectives to get the distance viewer on the other side of the portal wall.

Then the distance viewer can do his thing.

All the Sharonans have to be is _just on the other side_, inside the side of the cut AKA in the part under the direct fire range of Sharonan automatic and artillery weapons.

In fact, The Sharonans would dig -a lot- of tunnels along the base of the cliff to just on the other side of the portal.

All a distance viewer or flicker has to be is just on the other side.

Then the Arcanian side flicker sends a distance viewer impression message to any of the tunnels cut in the base of the cliff -- remember you make lots of them just past the portal to the Arcanian side -- with physical messengers to take the message out from the cave to the nearest Sharonan side flicker.

The dead zone on the other side of the cut is irrelevant from the perspective of the Sharonan artillery directing talent beach head.
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Re: Relative size of combatants
Post by Astelon   » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:35 pm

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I doubt that the tunnel idea is workable. The sharonians would have to dig down more than three thousand feet as well as out through the portal, remaining underground the entire way. They won't be able to start the digging at the portal itself, so how many miles of tunnel are we talking about here? That is a rather large undertaking.

If mortars can reach the bottom of the cliff sufficiently, then you don't even need any makeshift bombs. That also means properly aimed and timed attacks will be easier. I still suspect that any large arcanan force at the base of the cliff is a very bad idea. They would be much better off with picket forces at the Cut and its approaches, and rapid response forces based at a camp further away (outside of artillery range).

When a shrapnel loaded explosive device detonates the bursting charge gives velocity to the shrapnel itself. The Boston marathon bombing was essentially an improvised shrapnel bomb. Grenades are essentially small shrapnel explosives; pipe bombs and most improvised explosives devices work in the same way.
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