Sharonian Aircraft?

One thing I noticed is that the reported 200+ mph airspeed of the dragons are during dives. Not sure what the straight and level airspeed would be, but WWII era warbirds ought to be faster. I suspect we won't see the first 1 or 2 generation Sharonan airplanes. In all likelyhood the those WWI type planes would be dragon chow even for yellows. I can see how a dive attack on those cloth biplanes from a multi-ton dragon as a one sided affair.

Now, if the Sharonans develop an in-line aircooled 12 cylinder 600 bhp engine to power something like a P-51 Mustag armed with twin 50 cal wing mounted machine guns, then the dragons are swiss cheese. Those 50 cals would outrange a lightning bolt and the engine could pull that bird into the sun faster than a dragon could flap behind it.

Ariplanes might still be suseptible to griffons. Those buggers are faster and much more manuverable. I can see even a P-51 having a tough time taking out a griffon in air-to-air. Perhaps a two seater with a separate machine gun for the gunner would work better.

The final nail in Arcana's coffin is the long development time to breed and train dragons. Once Sharona develops tanks and suitible airplanes, they can replace them MUCH more quickly than Arcana can replace their organic weapon platforms. That means we will have that WMD discussion in the not too distant future.

Thanks for your greeting Howard!

It appears we agree that the Sharonans are capable of effectively defending themselves against battle dragon attacks. Personally I think at Fort Salby some of the Reds were shot down before they could fire and others managed to fire but the scene is unclear.

The primary problem is the dragon's transport capabilities. I think the Sharonans are at least 10 years and maybe as much as 30 from the type of aircraft required to do what you want and even once those are developed given the ability of dragons to fly 1000 miles in a day, land anywhere, and live off the land for a few days, I think catching them with a fighter which will need to get back to an airfield with a runway will be difficult.

So how effective will Arcanan attacks on supply lines be in the meantime?

I think this will depend on two things.
1) How much of the supply line can they reach?
2) Does local superiority permit the Arcanans to avoid Pyrrhic victories? Note the only Arcanan victories we have seen have either involved complete strategic and tactical surprise or been Pyrrhic.

As regards 1, this will depend on rather or not dragons can safely fly through portals where Sharonans control the ground. Three factors will determine this.

1)How high can dragons fly?
2)How high can Sharonan AA shoot?
3)How high are portals?

As regards 1, we know they had trouble going over the mountains at Fort Wyvern, they could do it but it drained them. I think that gives us an altitude limit of about 20,000 feet. Mountain valleys don't get much higher then that even in the Himalayas, which may have been what they were flying over.

As regards 2, we don't know but at least for artilkery converted for this use that high seems likely, by World War II AA artillery on Earth could reach 30,000 feet. I suspect that predictive distance viewers will let the Sharonans hit dragons at this range too.

As regards 3, while there are exceptions generally the ground seems to go through center of the circular portal so generally portal height will be half portal width. Which means any portal smaller then 8 miles across is going to constrain how high dragons can fly.

Thus I judge the Arcanans are going to take losses, possibly significant losses in transit if they try to transit Sharonan controlled portals to attack Sharonan supply lines.

As regards the issue of local superiority permitting the Arcanans to avoid heavy losses when attacking Sharonans. I think from ambush maybe but not otherwise and with Sharonan voices an ambush technique is liable to work only once. And given the balance of firepower at this time a couple of companies with heavy machine guns on each supply train is going to make attacking supply lines really expensive for the Arcanans.

In summary I think if the Sharonans send the mechanized forces they are bring up ahead with enough supplies for a couple of months (note the steamers can burn wood, grass and most anything else so they don't need to bring material for them) to seize the next portal in the chain and thus hurt the Arcanans when they try to use it. Put a couple of companies of troops on each train a universe back and then send them back on the empty trains. And run the trains frequently enough that their movement amounts to a patrol of the tracks. I don't think Arcanan efforts to raid Sharonan supply lines will prevent the Sharonans from advancing rapidly. I speculate they might be able to lay track under this regime at a rate of 25 miles a day, but that is pure speculation, the great authors, long may they write, will decide that.

Nicholas

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Welcome, brnicholas!

1) Yes, once the battle dragons come into the range of
the ground weapons. That leaves *lots* of airspace out
of ground-range, for the dragons to fly in. The dragons
can fly circles around the ground-weapons - literally!
Also note that at Salby the transports landed behind a
hill, which protected them from ground-fire.

2) Yes, and yet at Salby the battle dragons all fired
their lighting-bolts, and even their fireballs.
(They might have been shot out of the air before any
fireball could be in range, but Weber&Evans wrote their
story otherwise.)
Also please note that the lightning bolts have a longer
range than the fireballs or poison gas clouds. Sharonan
rifles seem to outrange the poison gas clouds, and
machine guns might outrange the fireballs "on the level"
but not when the machineguns are shooting "up" and the
fireballs are moving "down." The lightning bolts have
greater range, and can hit moving targets.
Of course all the above is subject to the Authors' whims.

4) This means that Sharonan units can *defend* themselves
against attack from battle dragons. If the dragons stay
out of range, then the Sharonans can't touch them.
The dragons might be forced to abandon any particular
ground position that they had hoped to defend, *BUT*
they can retreat from any Sharonan ground force, and
then circle around behind it and cut its supply lines.
Remember that the distance from FT. Salby to Ft. Mosanak
is more than 1,000 miles, across the Grocyran (Siberian)
tundra. That leaves a *much* longer LoC than Sharona's
Army can possibly defend.

The Sharonans will need "something" fast enought to
catch dragons, if they are to advance from one Portal to
another, much less win the war. They are now
experimenting with internal combustion vehicles, the
counterpart of the tank. Can you imagine tanks trying to
catch airplanes?
Sharona *needs* an air force, with air-to-air fighters,
somehow or other. Whether machines, animals, or magical
machinegun-equiped flying carpets, They need something!

HTM

brnicholas wrote:Eventually they probably can develop in a decade or so the air force but they don't need to and it won't do them a lot of good.

Hell Hath No Fury demonstrated decisively that:

1) Relatively light Sharonan ground weapons are easily capable of taking out attacking battle dragons.
2) Sharonan ground weapons are longer ranged then battle dragon breath weapons.
3) Dragon pilots generally don't fly at night.

4) Given these three things a few machine guns configured for anti-aircraft work and manned from an hour before dawn to an hour after dusk will turn battle dragons into a very minor threat.

The transport capabilities of dragons are another matter, but the air force you are proposing can't do much about that. When the Arcanans develop true night flight capability for their battle dragons, they already seem to have all the pieces required they just haven't applied it, it will also be another matter. But the air force you are proposing can't do a thing about that.

Nicholas

Note that dragons can fly through portals at night or in clouds. Sharona doesn't have radar or night-vision, though maybe Plotters can do similar things. Arcanan flight spellware does give them some advantages. Pus the Sharonans probably don't have the logistics capacity to ship unlimited AA ammo.

All true.

I expect there will be a number of talents (plotters and distance viewers at least), that can detect dragons at a distance at night and in clouds and target them, but that is up to the authors.

Yes the Sharonans can't ship unlimited AA ammo now, but if they build railroads anywhere near as fast as I think they will by the time the Arcanans have nearly unlimited dragons the Sharonans will have nearly unlimited AA ammo.

Nicholas

tonyz wrote:Note that dragons can fly through portals at night or in clouds. Sharona doesn't have radar or night-vision, though maybe Plotters can do similar things. Arcanan flight spellware does give them some advantages. Pus the Sharonans probably don't have the logistics capacity to ship unlimited AA ammo.

We seem to be looking at different things.
You seem to be looking at Arcanans sending dragons
through Sharonan-controlled Gates into Sharonan-held
Universes, such as Traisum, to attack LoCs there.
That gives Arcanans more problems than just transiting
the Gates. Their dragons would then be in Sharonan
Territory, subject to attack from Sharonans scattered
throughout Traisum. Arcanans would need to transit that
same Gate again, either to reinforce that Raiding Party,
or else to withdraw it. If the first transit succeeds,
the next might still be blocked, or decimated.
Their dragons would be few, thus precious,
and vulnerable to any Sharonan who brings up a weapon.
And Then their spells weaken when they enter Traisum!
All of these problems would be worse if Arcanans try
to enter Salym.
I cannot recommend such raids to the Arcanans!

What I am looking at is Arcanans on the defense,
against Sharonan attempts to retake Karys and reach the
Gate near Mosanak. I deem that Arcanans need not try to
transit Salby Portal, in order to cut Sharonan lines.
They can accept a Sharonan advance of two or three
hundred miles, and then **move between the Sharonans
and the Portal - Salby Portal**!
Arcana need not transit the well-defended Portal in order
to attack Sharonan the LoC. They need only allow the
Sharonans to advance 200 or 300 miles beyond it,
or even 500 miles, and then the Sharonan attackers are
dependent on three or five *hundred* miles of railroad.

Nor need the Arcanans attack a well-defended train.
Instead, they tear up the rails in front of the train,
and then tear up the rails behind it.
All of the time staying out of range of Sharonan guns.
Until Sharonans are able to catch and fight dragons, I
don't see how they can stop Arcanans from cutting their
supply lines in Karys.

HTM

brnicholas wrote:
[snip - htm]
So how effective will Arcanan attacks on supply lines be in the meantime?

I think this will depend on two things.
1) How much of the supply line can they reach?
[snip - htm]

Thus I judge the Arcanans are going to take losses, possibly significant losses in transit if they try to transit Sharonan controlled portals to attack Sharonan supply lines.
[snip - htm]
And given the balance of firepower at this time a couple of companies with heavy machine guns on each supply train is going to make attacking supply lines really expensive for the Arcanans.

In summary I think if the Sharonans send the mechanized forces they are bring up ahead with enough supplies for a couple of months (note the steamers can burn wood, grass and most anything else so they don't need to bring material for them) to seize the next portal in the chain and thus hurt the Arcanans when they try to use it. Put a couple of companies of troops on each train a universe back and then send them back on the empty trains. And run the trains frequently enough that their movement amounts to a patrol of the tracks. I don't think Arcanan efforts to raid Sharonan supply lines will prevent the Sharonans from advancing rapidly. I speculate they might be able to lay track under this regime at a rate of 25 miles a day, but that is pure speculation, the great authors, long may they write, will decide that.

Nicholas

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:
[snip]
4) [snip]
The dragons might be forced to abandon any particular
ground position that they had hoped to defend, *BUT*
they can retreat from any Sharonan ground force, and
then circle around behind it and cut its supply lines.
Remember that the distance from FT. Salby to Ft. Mosanak
is more than 1,000 miles, across the Grocyran (Siberian)
tundra. That leaves a *much* longer LoC than Sharona's
Army can possibly defend.

The Sharonans will need "something" fast enought to
catch dragons, if they are to advance from one Portal to
another, much less win the war. [snip - htm]
Sharona *needs* an air force, with air-to-air fighters,
somehow or other. Whether machines, animals, or magical
machinegun-equiped flying carpets, They need something!

HTM

You are right we are looking at different things, or perhaps assuming different Sharonan attack patterns.

I am assuming that Sharonan forces, especially since our great and glorious author long may he write, gave them motorized vehicles for which they don't need to carry fuel and vastly superior firepower, will be able to seize the next gate in the chain basically when they start advancing into a universe. That force can carry sufficient supplies for a long stay at the gate and be resupplied via convoys too well defended for the Arcanans to take out (given the resources likely to be available to them in the next year or two). If that assumption is true every disadvantage you stated for attacking LoCs behind Sharonan controlled gates applies to every bit of the rail line.

Nicholas

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:We seem to be looking at different things.
You seem to be looking at Arcanans sending dragons
through Sharonan-controlled Gates into Sharonan-held
Universes, such as Traisum, to attack LoCs there.

snip

Dragons take 20 years or so to breed and train. The numbers of battle dragons have dwindled since Arcana's unification. The number of transport dragons have increased. As we saw in HHNF, battle dragons attacking fortified positions prepared for them is a losing proposiion strategically. It might be better to conserve battle dragons for defensive use. Attacking Sharonan forces attacking Arcanan ground forces might be the best use of battle dragons for the near term.

That suggests that in the next few books, Saronan infantry and motorized (steam and IC) vehicles will be up against Arcanan infantry and heavy cavalry. The transport dragons will provide greater tactical mobility and supply, while the railroads will provide greater strategic mobility and supply. Sharonans will get more and larger forces into play while Arcanans will make more efficient use of smaller more mobile forces.

I doubt we will see air combat for years yet. Arcana needs to breed up battle dragons and Sharona needs to invent a suitible war plane. In the meanwhile, land battles with truly interesting participants will prevail. Unicorns against steam tanks and AFVs?!? How fun is that?!

brnicholas wrote:You are right we are looking at different things, or perhaps assuming different Sharonan attack patterns.

I am assuming that Sharonan forces, especially since our great and glorious author long may he write, gave them motorized vehicles for which they don't need to carry fuel and vastly superior firepower, will be able to seize the next gate in the chain basically when they start advancing into a universe. That force can carry sufficient supplies for a long stay at the gate and be resupplied via convoys too well defended for the Arcanans to take out (given the resources likely to be available to them in the next year or two). If that assumption is true every disadvantage you stated for attacking LoCs behind Sharonan controlled gates applies to every bit of the rail line.

Nicholas

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:We seem to be looking at different things.
You seem to be looking at Arcanans sending dragons
through Sharonan-controlled Gates into Sharonan-held
Universes, such as Traisum, to attack LoCs there.

snip

I deem those logistics *very* optimistic.
En march, driving motorized vehicles quickly,
they stop, cut down trees,, and feed the green wood
directly into their fuel boxes!
Wood is not as efficient as gas, or even coal.

They would be in the Siberian Tundra, not the Russian
forests. How much wood do you expect them to find?
If they send a Wood-cutting Party away from their Main
Force, it becomes very vulnerable - and they'd need to
do that often. Or else the Main Force can move from
grove to grove in search of the wood.

Not to mention that they must carry all of their own
spare parts, all of their own ammo, and all of their
own food. They can not use Air Search to find herds of
game animals, as the Arcanans can. There are no farms
planted on the tundra yet, so finding grains, vegetables,
and fruits would be time-consuming.
Etc, Etc.

It is 1200+ miles from Salby across Karys to Mosenak,
and about that much more from Mosenak to Ghartoum, only
that trip is across the Sahara Desert!

Of course Weber&Presby can write it that way if they
choose to. They are good enough to make it seem
possible, even reasonable.

HTM

brnicholas wrote:You are right we are looking at different things, or perhaps assuming different Sharonan attack patterns.

I am assuming that Sharonan forces, especially since our great and glorious author long may he write, gave them motorized vehicles for which they don't need to carry fuel and vastly superior firepower, will be able to seize the next gate in the chain basically when they start advancing into a universe. That force can carry sufficient supplies for a long stay at the gate and be resupplied via convoys too well defended for the Arcanans to take out (given the resources likely to be available to them in the next year or two). If that assumption is true every disadvantage you stated for attacking LoCs behind Sharonan controlled gates applies to every bit of the rail line.

Nicholas

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:We seem to be looking at different things.
You seem to be looking at Arcanans sending dragons
through Sharonan-controlled Gates into Sharonan-held
Universes, such as Traisum, to attack LoCs there.

snip

Motorized transport allows Sharona to move supplies ahead of the railhead. If they create well defended depots, Arcana will be losing battle dragons with each attack and those attacks might not even succeed. That type of attriction would benefit Sharona. As for attacking the convoys, the same risk applies. Building mobile AA or machinegun platforms to accompany the convoys takes weeks or months. Trading them for battle dragons is a winning propostion for Sharona. I suspect that Arcanan light and heavy cavalry shipped around by transport dragons are a better strategic and tactical proposition.

Even so there is a limit to that utility. Sharona will simply move in larger forces to make ambushes more costly for Arcana. Eventually, Sharona will have reached far enough so that Arcana will have to fight 2-3 portals behind Sharonan lines to hit their supplies. That is more than a little risky.

I believe Sharona can push Arcana back because they can arm any trooper with their most powerful weapons, while arcana requires some arcane ability to utilize their truly powerful weapons. That suggests that the Sharonans can concentrate more firepower per unit than Arcana can. Sure Some Arcana units will have truly powerful weapons, but the number of those units depend on a small portion of the Arcana Gifted population in addition to training and production limits. Sharona's only limitation is training and production as anyone can operate any weapon.

The speed of any Sharonan advance might be slowed by Arcanan LoC attacks, but I don't think it will be stopped. The exposure to those types of attacks will be at most 2 universes behind the front. That's a lot of territory for sure, but Sharona only needs to protect the convoys and push the front further. As they push the front closer to Arcana, Arcana air mobile forces would have to pull back or risk running to a truly heavy concentration of troops being sent up the chain from the universes being consolidated.

Again, the key is the concentration of firepower. Sharonan units can manage this better if they pick their time and place to fight. Arcana needs surprise to manage greater concentration of firepower. That brings me to the final point. The Calirath talent can be "turned on" in someone with the blood and the Imperial healers know how to do that. Dollars to donughts Andrin turns on quite a few more Calirath's prcognative abilities for deployemnt in this war. I say Adrin because it is well telegraphed that her father will die shortly by (I suspect) Chava's hand.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:I deem those logistics *very* optimistic.
En march, driving motorized vehicles quickly,
they stop, cut down trees,, and feed the green wood
directly into their fuel boxes!
Wood is not as efficient as gas, or even coal.

They would be in the Siberian Tundra, not the Russian
forests. How much wood do you expect them to find?
If they send a Wood-cutting Party away from their Main
Force, it becomes very vulnerable - and they'd need to
do that often. Or else the Main Force can move from
grove to grove in search of the wood.

Not to mention that they must carry all of their own
spare parts, all of their own ammo, and all of their
own food. They can not use Air Search to find herds of
game animals, as the Arcanans can. There are no farms
planted on the tundra yet, so finding grains, vegetables,
and fruits would be time-consuming.
Etc, Etc.

It is 1200+ miles from Salby across Karys to Mosenak,
and about that much more from Mosenak to Ghartoum, only
that trip is across the Sahara Desert!

Of course Weber&Presby can write it that way if they
choose to. They are good enough to make it seem
possible, even reasonable.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:Dragons take 20 years or so to breed and train. The numbers of battle dragons have dwindled since Arcana's unification. The number of transport dragons have increased. As we saw in HHNF, battle dragons attacking fortified positions prepared for them is a losing proposiion strategically. It might be better to conserve battle dragons for defensive use.

Don't forget the possibly subtle suggestion - magic's power is decreasing within the Arcanian incursion into Sharona, just as Sharonian "talent" is losing viability the farther into Arcana.

Whether that is distance or time related... is not known. But that could make dragons and levitation-spells, very less reliable.