Iconic Bookstore Burned Down In Riots

I'm not siding with the police in our current discussion, but we all should remember that they have a shitty job. They constantly come up against the worst humanity has to offer, dealing with violent criminals, domestic disputes, and on and on it goes.

That being said, the consequence is that they come to hunker down with each other, socializing with each other rather than getting out into the community etc. The result of that tends to an "us against the world" mentality.

Then too, I wonder how they are trained at the police academies and how that contributes to the situation. Here I have no clue, but it does leave me wondering how that might factor in..

With the London police, didn't they used to walk their beats with night sticks rather than lethal weapons? I think they were called bobbys or something like that...

Don

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n7axw wrote:I'm not siding with the police in our current discussion, but we all should remember that they have a shitty job. They constantly come up against the worst humanity has to offer, dealing with violent criminals, domestic disputes, and on and on it goes.

Absolutely, and as many a police officer has said, the police is currently over-tasked, over-armed under-trained. They get called to deal with anything ranging from actual crimes to domestic disturbances to people being annoyed by the damn kids being too loud to dealing with people undergoing a psychological crisis, and not all of those situations (in fact, the vast majority of them) do not require an armed response.

That's why police departments should be defunded and their funds be allocated to agencies better able to handle minor stuff like that, with their remaining funds reallocated to better training and fewer MRAPS.

That being said, the consequence is that they come to hunker down with each other, socializing with each other rather than getting out into the community etc. The result of that tends to an "us against the world" mentality.

Then too, I wonder how they are trained at the police academies and how that contributes to the situation. Here I have no clue, but it does leave me wondering how that might factor in..

Not enough, is the answer.

With the London police, didn't they used to walk their beats with night sticks rather than lethal weapons? I think they were called bobbys or something like that...

Yes, because british police is based around Peelian principles, which emphasizes constant presence, community engagement, training and accountability over being good with a gun.

I think police involvement in the community beyond simply the law enforcement end of things is essential to building the trust between the community and the police force. I’m from a small town in northern Alberta, so obviously we have far different issues up here than there are in major cities, but our local detachment does bicycle safety training for the kids in town, they go into the elementary schools and read with the kids etc. These kind of activities help build the bond between the community and the police force, and the whole defunding idea would likely remove the budget that allows them to do these things. That being said, I havnt heard of anyone in my area wanting the RCMP defunded, just the opposite actually, as the crime rate in the general area has gone through the roof the last few years due to the local economy going seriously downhill while drugs, etc seem far more prevalent than ever before. My local detachment covers an area about 150km by 80 km, With 1 large town (population 3000) and 5 smaller hamlets and villages ranging from 50-600 people. They have 8 officers to do the job. Most people in my area would love to have more officers up here.

Odium wrote:I think police involvement in the community beyond simply the law enforcement end of things is essential to building the trust between the community and the police force. I’m from a small town in northern Alberta, so obviously we have far different issues up here than there are in major cities, but our local detachment does bicycle safety training for the kids in town, they go into the elementary schools and read with the kids etc. These kind of activities help build the bond between the community and the police force, and the whole defunding idea would likely remove the budget that allows them to do these things. That being said, I havnt heard of anyone in my area wanting the RCMP defunded, just the opposite actually, as the crime rate in the general area has gone through the roof the last few years due to the local economy going seriously downhill while drugs, etc seem far more prevalent than ever before. My local detachment covers an area about 150km by 80 km, With 1 large town (population 3000) and 5 smaller hamlets and villages ranging from 50-600 people. They have 8 officers to do the job. Most people in my area would love to have more officers up here.

You are describing a very different situation than what is being experienced in our larger cities. Defunding doesn't mean abolishing the police. At its most radical it means corraling the cops and getting policing back under control of the communities they serve. Black communities in particular are often over-policed without any corresponding reduction in crime and violence.

Don

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n7axw wrote:Defunding doesn't mean abolishing the police.

Be sure and tell that to the BLM 'activists' because they are under the impression that is exactly what it means.
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The Democrats are willing to burn America to the ground, so long as they wind up squatting on top of the ashes.

Imaginos1892 wrote:

n7axw wrote:Defunding doesn't mean abolishing the police.

Be sure and tell that to the BLM 'activists' because they are under the impression that is exactly what it means.
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No, they know exactly what they mean. A small minority of anarchists want no police, the rest want exactly what was just explained to you in one form or another.

Imaginos1892 wrote:

n7axw wrote:Defunding doesn't mean abolishing the police.

Be sure and tell that to the BLM 'activists' because they are under the impression that is exactly what it means.
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The Democrats are willing to burn America to the ground, so long as they wind up squatting on top of the ashes.

I'm sure that most black Americans would be be happy if the cops would stop shooting their kids for walking down the street unarmed.

They have been promised reform before and it never seems to happen. They are angry and justly so. I share their anger. At least with some police departments, starting over from scratch does seem the way to go.

Don

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n7axw wrote:

Odium wrote:I think police involvement in the community beyond simply the law enforcement end of things is essential to building the trust between the community and the police force. I’m from a small town in northern Alberta, so obviously we have far different issues up here than there are in major cities, but our local detachment does bicycle safety training for the kids in town, they go into the elementary schools and read with the kids etc. These kind of activities help build the bond between the community and the police force, and the whole defunding idea would likely remove the budget that allows them to do these things. That being said, I havnt heard of anyone in my area wanting the RCMP defunded, just the opposite actually, as the crime rate in the general area has gone through the roof the last few years due to the local economy going seriously downhill while drugs, etc seem far more prevalent than ever before. My local detachment covers an area about 150km by 80 km, With 1 large town (population 3000) and 5 smaller hamlets and villages ranging from 50-600 people. They have 8 officers to do the job. Most people in my area would love to have more officers up here.

You are describing a very different situation than what is being experienced in our larger cities. Defunding doesn't mean abolishing the police. At its most radical it means corraling the cops and getting policing back under control of the communities they serve. Black communities in particular are often over-policed without any corresponding reduction in crime and violence.

Don
Cfm
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I’m well aware that it’s a very different situation, but what I was trying to say, was that community involvement is necessary. Trust is a 2 way street and not only do the people need to be able to trust the police, the opposite is true as well. That is where I disagree with removing a lot of the police budget because when they make cuts, it will be those activities that are the first to go. I agree that in some cases rebuilding the police force from the ground up may be the only solution. The problems come from both sides though, the police have their “thin blue line” where officers won’t deal with their “brothers” on the force who they know are corrupt or abusing their powers, and many communities have the “snitches need stitches” or “police are the enemy” attitudes, and no one will help police or give them information. I read a news report this morning about a party where multiple people started shooting, over 100 shell casings found, 2 dead/7 injured. Not a single witness willing to speak with the police although over 400 people were present. I have no idea what the answer is or how to buiild that trust between community and police when it is already that broken, but removing all the community involvement from police jobs means that the only time people will be interacting with police is when they are there in a guns drawn/confrontational role and I can’t see that helping. Possibly having a trained social worker accompanying officers who is not a member of the police department’s could help. But then those officers would not have backup immediately at hand when they get into situations requiring more than 1 officer.

Odium, the need for community involvement is certainly something we can agree on... The police have to take the initiative on that, though. Your mention of having cops fixing kids bikes is one good specific idea on how to approach that... The point is that the cops should know as many people as possible at least on the level of being a familiar face. The more approachable the police are, the more likely you are going to have trust both ways.

One issue in some of our cities is overpolicing. Recently a pair of black teenagers were picked up and booked for jaywalking... down a street with no sidewalks. Didn't those cops have anything more critical to be dealing with? Maybe they need new jobs. The real problem we have here is that more and more social and community programs have been slighted as more and more funding has gone to the police. So the police end up being asked to take on more and more tasks for which they are not suited. Maybe we need a better balance... And oh yes, maybe funding could be found for sidewalks so those kids didn't have to jaywalk down the street.

The thing is, if the only tool you have in your box is a hammer, then every problem ends up being a nail... Not a good perspective to have.

Don

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gcomeau wrote:https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/nation-world/story/2020-06-03/prosecutors-3-held-in-las-vegas-on-terror-charges-in-right-wing-conspiracy-to-spark-violence-during-protests

Prosecutors: 3 held in Las Vegas on terror charges in right-wing conspiracy to spark violence during protests.

Are we detecting a theme yet?

How about now... theme emerging yet?

https://www.wsls.com/news/virginia/2020 ... es-matter/

Police: Richmond riots instigated by white supremacists disguised as Black Lives Matter

Riots in downtown Richmond over the weekend were instigated by white supremacists under the guise of Black Lives Matter, according to law enforcement officials.

Protesters tore down police tape and pushed forward toward Richmond police headquarters, where they set a city dump truck on fire.

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Six people were arrested. The mayor of Richmond thanked the Black Lives Matter protesters he said tried to stop the white supremacists from spearheading the violence.

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