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Hmm You want me to pay for what?

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Should the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) be:

1) Kept
3
9%
2) Fixed
13
41%
3) Repealed
15
47%
4) I'm brain dead with no opinion.
1
3%
 
Total votes : 32

Re: Hmm You want me to pay for what?
Post by biochem   » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:59 pm

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Agree completely. Proof abounds internationally that a properly run government universal health service is more efficient, more effective and more ethical.


And you actually believe that the US government is capable of running anything in a more efficient, more effective and more ethical manner? Americans don't trust it because we are looking at the disasters they have created in areas such as the VA where we do have socialized healthcare and most of the 85% of us who do have health insurance much prefer not to let them run the rest of the healthcare system.

If I were to do a do over, I'd recommend fixing the healthcare system by focusing on the needs of the 15% uninsured. That 15% basically splits into 2 subgroups of insurance needs: the reasonably healthy group who needs insurance to protect them from major health disasters such as car accidents, cancer etc, the type of things that bankrupt people and the chronically ill group who have heart conditions, diabetes etc etc that lead to a steady stream of ongoing significant medical expenses year in and year out. For the latter group I'd propose something along the lines of the high risk pool in Oregon that namelessfly mentioned. For the former, cheap, affordable catastrophic insurance that protects against major health disasters and only major health disasters. And leaving the 85% alone! Yes I know there is a lot of room for improvement there but there is also a lot of room to make things worse and given the complete lack of competence they've exhibited to date. I don't trust the government to improve it.
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Re: Hmm You want me to pay for what?
Post by MAD-4A   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:59 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Government paid heathcare isn't free. The services have to paid for regardless of who is sponsoring the healthcare plan in question. The proponents of publicly fund healthcare simply want the more well off and healthy to pay for the less well off and sick. On top of that they want one of the least efficient organizations in any society to manage that transfer of wealth. When efficiency means providing a service for the least amount of resources, why on earth would any sane and caring individual want ANY government near running healthcare? Regulate? Certainly. Manage and operate? Hell no!

Any other organization(s) that isn't a monopoly or oligopoly can do the job more efficiently. That means more healthcare for any given level of resources.

"uhm...excuse me but can I get this steel re-bar taken out of my stomach?"
"Take a number (743) and wait over there. Serving #237" :shock:
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Hmm You want me to pay for what?
Post by MAD-4A   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:04 pm

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Eyal wrote:On the other hand, the government is at least theoretically interested in your welfare.
no really - it's interested in it's own (those in charge) welfare, that's why Congress has a waiver for it's members, they can get their own (good) healthcare. they couldn't care less about anyone else.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Hmm You want me to pay for what?
Post by MAD-4A   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:13 pm

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Annachie wrote:At least the government isn't screwing everything down in the hunt for the ...almighty dollar and it's bastard offspring the executive bonus.
What makes you think that? Of course this whole things about special interest and kickbacks to the liberals from those who profit from it. And screwing over the Taxpayers.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: Hmm You want me to pay for what?
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:18 pm

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MAD-4A wrote:]What makes you think that? Of course this whole things about special interest and kickbacks to the liberals from those who profit from it. And screwing over the Taxpayers.


A quibble. Not just the liberals. Remember the fine senator (war hero and staunch conservative) from the CA (I think it was a while ago '90's?) or the problems of Tom Delay or various and sundry others. Currently liberals get the worst of the rap but that is because they are the ones in charge. Give it 2 years and the conservatives will have their own issues.

They all have a vested interest in lining their own pockets. IMO anyway.

Have fun,
T2M
-----------------------
Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
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Re: Hmm You want me to pay for what?
Post by Annachie   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:18 pm

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MAD-4A wrote:
Annachie wrote:At least the government isn't screwing everything down in the hunt for the ...almighty dollar and it's bastard offspring the executive bonus.
What makes you think that? Of course this whole things about special interest and kickbacks to the liberals from those who profit from it. And screwing over the Taxpayers.


Sub prime morgage is the great glaring example.

So is workers average wage falling in real terms but excecutive wages rising by magnitudes in real terms.

Need I go on?

Watch using the term liberal. Down here that's the name of the conservative party, who admitadly are crooked as anything. (Really, something like 20% of the NSW state liberal mp's have been pinged for coruption)
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still not dead. :)
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Re: Hmm You want me to pay for what?
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:24 pm

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Annachie wrote:...snip...
Watch using the term liberal. Down here that's the name of the conservative party, who admitadly are crooked as anything. (Really, something like 20% of the NSW state liberal mp's have been pinged for coruption)


Wouldn't that as a proper noun be Capitalized. Understanding of course that most of us here (including maybe especially myself) are keyboard challenged.

Enjoy,
T2M
-----------------------
Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
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Re: Hmm You want me to pay for what?
Post by Annachie   » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:51 am

Annachie
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T2m, probably should have been.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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Re: Hmm You want me to pay for what?
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:28 pm

thinkstoomuch
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Posts: 2727
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Annachie wrote:T2m, probably should have been.


Ok, I am not just keyboard challenged. :D

Also clarity.

I was actually referring to the "liberal" in the post by MAD-4A vice "Liberal".

To be honest I dislike both liberal;l and conservative as like your political party, those words rarely mean what the definition says in the dictionary.

Just another stereotype. Quick handle on concepts and labeling people, but are very slippery ...

Have a wonderful day,
T2M
-----------------------
Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
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Re: Hmm You want me to pay for what?
Post by gcomeau   » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:31 pm

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biochem wrote:
Agree completely. Proof abounds internationally that a properly run government universal health service is more efficient, more effective and more ethical.


And you actually believe that the US government is capable of running anything in a more efficient, more effective and more ethical manner?


Considering the fact that that is already true today and has been for... well always... are you telling me you seriously don't? Medicare consumes approximately 2-3% of it's operating budget on administration with the rest going to care. Private sector? Administrative costs north of 15%.

Medicare premium increases have been, for DECADES, consistently lower than the private sector.

Medicare goes out of it's way to try to provide coverage for the segment of the population that is most in need of it's services, the private sector goes out of it's way to AVOID providing that segment of the population with insurance. I think we have efficiency and ethics covered.

And many of the contributing reasons for why that is naturally the case and will always continue to be the case were laid out in detail in my previous post.



Americans don't trust it because we are looking at the disasters they have created in areas such as the VA where we do have socialized healthcare and most of the 85% of us who do have health insurance much prefer not to let them run the rest of the healthcare system.


No, most Americans don't trust it because

1. They have no grasp of the fact that the types of "disasters" you are talking about are still better than what the private sector does with their health insurance coverage. If the VA and medicare are "disasters" then the private sector health insurance sector in the US is Armageddon. Just try getting all those elderly people and combat vets covered by a private sector free market system and see how that turns out. Not pretty.


2. Half the country has adopted as nearly religious dogma the ridiculous idea that government literally *can't* do anything right and (and this is the part that I have never been able to fully wrap my mind around) as a consequence insist on voting for people who share this belief. Which is rather like voting for people who refuse to believe in heavier than air flight to pilot your aircraft. And then pointing at the frequent resulting crashes as evidence that maybe those guys know what they're talking about so you should really keep putting them on the damn flight deck.
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