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Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin

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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:41 pm

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Daryl wrote:There we have the nub of the matter, fly. If you do believe that, then no amount of reasoned logic will shift your belief, so discussion is pointless.
Joat42 wrote:Pretty much.. The hubris in the belief that the universe and Earth was created for the sole purpose of sustaining man.
TFLYTSNBN wrote:

And there we have the nub of the matter, you two refuse to discuss the matter because you are unable to acknowledge the possibility that just may be the Earth's ecosystem is more resilient than you imagine. If you had accepted my challenge to write the thermodynamic equation that defines the equilibrium temperature of the planet, then you just might have learned something about radiative heat transfer. You might have understood that there are variables other than IR emissivity that effect the equilibrium temperature. Even more importantly, you might have even recognized that the equilibrium temperature is extremely insensitive to changes in these three variables. If you two bigots had actually been willing to honor the challenge and crunch the numbers, you would have understood that without the greenhouse effect, the Earth would be frozen over.

Of course your indignation at my suggestion that you simplify the equation by presuming that the Earth's surface is a thermal superconductor prevented you from understanding that the Earth is cooler at the equator and temperate zones because so much heat is transferred to the polar regions. This might have given you the insight that the Arctic and Antarctic are the planetary radiators that can effectively cool the Earth because of the near absence of water vapor, not CO2. An even more astonishing insight to you is there is a heat transport mechanism other than radiative heat transfer that is profoundly important. At this point you might have even realized that there exists a heat transfer mechanism other than radiative heat transfer that transfers heat from the Earth's surface to the upper atmosphere. This effectively short circuits the greenhouse effect making CO2 almost irrelevant.

Neither I or the scientists that you disparage for believing in Intelligent Design are stupid enough to believe that humanity can not screw up the planet at some point. We just aren't there yet. We shouldn't be condemning billions of people to live in poverty or commit genocide to cull the "surplus" population to "save the planet.".

Gyou guys are the dangerous religious zealots.


What a delightful Thanksgiving present!
Thank you, Fly!
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by Joat42   » Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:34 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Neither I or the scientists that you disparage for believing in Intelligent Design are stupid enough to believe that humanity can not screw up the planet at some point. We just aren't there yet. We shouldn't be condemning billions of people to live in poverty or commit genocide to cull the "surplus" population to "save the planet.".

Gyou guys are the dangerous religious zealots.

So why are some many people who believe in ID using it as an excuse when it's convenient? "No, man can't affect the climate enough if we don't stray outside these thresholds because Someone™ designed it like that". And if Someone™ happens to be a "God" of the original Jewish variety, it couldn't design Earth to incorporate a resilience against humans fucking it up because when it "created" Earth there where no humans.

Anyone grounded in reality realizes that limiting humans impact on the climate is a good thing, because as I've mentioned before, mucking around with a system you don't fully understand is kind of bad - the "billions of humans dead" kind of bad if you go to far and we currently don't have good grasp of what the thresholds are, so I don't care on iota about YOUR belief that "we aren't there yet". And I'll keep disparaging anyone who uses fairy tales as a counter to deal with real problems that actually affects everyone.

I have to ask, what's so fucking bad about trying to clean up the environment and stop spewing things into the atmosphere that doesn't belong there? And why would that lead to condemning billions of people to live in poverty or the genocide of population?

And finally, who's the real zealot? The one that believe in things with no empirical evidence or the one who believes in empirical evidence and verifiable facts?

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by Daryl   » Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:47 am

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Considering that this is a side discussion thread on a hard science fiction writer's web page, I believe it is appropriate to point out that ID is equivalent to hand wavium. Both are deus ex machina props.
No need to do your computing challenge fly, as it has been repeatedly done in extreme detail by various super computers, without having to make broad invalidating assumptions.
I freely admit that there are many vectors influencing heat transfer, and many inputs to climate change. That said, at the end of the day there is significant and geologically rapid change occurring that correlates with human population and activities.
When you consider the single input of a car, it could well be that the 80% of its energy that is wasted heat voided by its radiator may have as much influence as the CO2 out of the tail pipe. End result, more industrialised mankind activity equals more climate change.
I do challenge the assumption that we have to impoverish ourselves to clean up our act. Bet you drive something like a Ford F150, and not a more economical vehicle? My solar panels have meant no power bills for 12 years.
On the bigot accusation consider me guilty. In an infinite universe, with galaxies that seem to go on forever, apparently semi literate goat herders on one planet about 4000 years ago, worked out how it was all brought into being, that the entity responsible looked like them, liked them and made them its special friends. Supplying rules to keep it happy, and setting things up for their comfort.
Yeah, right?
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:19 pm

TFLYTSNBN

Daryl wrote:Considering that this is a side discussion thread on a hard science fiction writer's web page, I believe it is appropriate to point out that ID is equivalent to hand wavium. Both are deus ex machina props.
No need to do your computing challenge fly, as it has been repeatedly done in extreme detail by various super computers, without having to make broad invalidating assumptions.
I freely admit that there are many vectors influencing heat transfer, and many inputs to climate change. That said, at the end of the day there is significant and geologically rapid change occurring that correlates with human population and activities.
When you consider the single input of a car, it could well be that the 80% of its energy that is wasted heat voided by its radiator may have as much influence as the CO2 out of the tail pipe. End result, more industrialised mankind activity equals more climate change.
I do challenge the assumption that we have to impoverish ourselves to clean up our act. Bet you drive something like a Ford F150, and not a more economical vehicle? My solar panels have meant no power bills for 12 years.
On the bigot accusation consider me guilty. In an infinite universe, with galaxies that seem to go on forever, apparently semi literate goat herders on one planet about 4000 years ago, worked out how it was all brought into being, that the entity responsible looked like them, liked them and made them its special friends. Supplying rules to keep it happy, and setting things up for their comfort.
Yeah, right?



I will address the most bigoted aspects of your posts first.
The premise of ID is NOT that God created the universe with its billions of galaxies and some 1eex20 stars just to enable one species of ignorant goat herders to exist. God created a universe that could enable life so that something in excess of 1eex15 intelligence species could exist and progress beyond herding goats. When we meet these other species, we will understand that the image of God has nothing to do with physical attributes.

The problem with your devotion to global warming theology is that people like you have become so devoted to your religion that you will ignore the blatant fraud of falsifying climate records. Climategate!

You also ignore the fundamental errors in the Global Circulation Models that have ignored some of the most fundamental factors that effect climate. You do not understand what those factors are because you refuse to accept my challenge. One example is how changes in Albedo effect climate. Even when they finally try to address Albedo by considering Arctic ice, they FUBAR their calculations by ignoring how Arctic ice acts as a thermal insulator that dramatically reduces the IR emissivity of the Arctic. These imbeciles continue to ignore the heat that is transported to the upper atmosphere via the mechanisms of evaporation, convection, radiation (optical depth of CO2 as well as H2O is very nearly zero at 20,000 feet) condensation and precipitation. The energy flow by this mechanism dwarfs the alleged radiative forcing from CO2 that is presumably amplified by CO2 allegedly increasing the concentration of H2O vapor. (BTW, this last point that conflicts with theory that has been successfully utilized by meteorologists for over a century could be tested by a relatively simple laboratory experiment. Show me the peer reviewed research article on such an experiment.)

You also ignore the implications of AGW theology. If CO2 is going to broil the planet, your solar panels to power your house and your more efficient car will not do diddly shit to save the planet. Bill Gates was somewhat infamous for his calculation of CO2 emissions from humans because it emphasized that given AGW assumptions, a profiund reduction in the human population is urgently needed. If the panicked AGW predictions were valid, simply reducing energy use per person and reducing birth rates to below replacement levels isn't going to save the planet. It will take a century for the planetary population to decline significantly from people aging and dying from natural causes. To avoid the AGW apocalypse, it is necessary to cull surplus populations. Since changes in the Earth's Albedo resulting from converting forests into farmland or desert have an even more profound effect on planetary climate than CO2 allegedly has, exterminating the populations of Third World countries is more effective than exterminating Europeans and Australians.

Guess who is going to be exterminated if the acolytes of Global Warming Theology have their way?
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by Joat42   » Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:08 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:blah blah blah

Is the current trend for ERF stable, negative or positive?

And what does that mean?

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:34 pm

TFLYTSNBN

Joat42 wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:blah blah blah

Is the current trend for ERF stable, negative or positive?

And what does that mean?



The answer to that question is subject to dispute.

What is the CLAIMED current value of ERF by AGW Theologians?

Give your answer in Watts/m^2.

How does this value compare to average insolation?

What is the probable change in temperature resulting from the alleged increase in ERF?
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by Daryl   » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:42 am

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Tipping points.
Some situations may be self sustaining. Antarctic ice slides off the continent causing rapid ocean level rises. Arctic ice melts leading to greater absorption of solar heat. Permafrost melts releasing methane by the millions of tons.
Interesting article on TV tonight showing how Switzerland's glaciers have all decreased markedly, and the effect is accelerating. I know from personal observation that New Zealand's are doing the same.

Worst case scenario for my part of the world. South East Asia reaches the point that it is uninhabitable, people can't survive outside without aids, crops die, fish stocks are depleted. Previous refugee situations are dwarfed as people run for survival by the many millions. Our government looks at our depleted arable land and reduced water supplies, then makes the harsh decision to stop migration by whatever means to ensure our survival. Machine gunning sampans and junks full of women and children becomes a daily mechanical task.

Earth (Gaia?) decides that the plague of homo sapiens has to be depleted. Plagues, famine and pestilence ensue.

I can accept your version of ID as being logical, don't believe it but respect it and continue to respect you.
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:06 pm

TFLYTSNBN

Daryl wrote:Tipping points.
Some situations may be self sustaining. Antarctic ice slides off the continent causing rapid ocean level rises. Arctic ice melts leading to greater absorption of solar heat. Permafrost melts releasing methane by the millions of tons.
Interesting article on TV tonight showing how Switzerland's glaciers have all decreased markedly, and the effect is accelerating. I know from personal observation that New Zealand's are doing the same.

Worst case scenario for my part of the world. South East Asia reaches the point that it is uninhabitable, people can't survive outside without aids, crops die, fish stocks are depleted. Previous refugee situations are dwarfed as people run for survival by the many millions. Our government looks at our depleted arable land and reduced water supplies, then makes the harsh decision to stop migration by whatever means to ensure our survival. Machine gunning sampans and junks full of women and children becomes a daily mechanical task.

Earth (Gaia?) decides that the plague of homo sapiens has to be depleted. Plagues, famine and pestilence ensue.

I can accept your version of ID as being logical, don't believe it but respect it and continue to respect you.




I am grateful that you mentioned watching the program on television last night. How accurate are the claims made in that program?
This is the point of my challenges. I am asking people to actually do some of the calculations themselves rather than mindlessly accept the propaganda that is presented to them. Keep in mind that:
Television producers are not climate scientists.
Television producers are fixated on maximizing viewership.
Television producers do not vet the people who claim to be climate scientists.
Television producers are most likely to quote the alleged climate scientists who make the most alarming statements.
Climate scientists are willing to make outrageous claims so that they can get on television and as a result may be get a date on Saturday night.

Just FYI, the advance or retreat of a glacier is as much a function of precipitation rates and timing as temperature.

As I posted before, the Earth has been coming out of a mini ice age for the past few centuries. The climate has been warming naturally before humans began burning fossil fuels.

I am not trying to insult or reticule you here. I just want you to actually understand the issue.

Now do the math and THINK!

Hint, Google "black body radiation."
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by smr   » Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:18 pm

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That was one of the finest forum posts that I have ever seen or read and I just want to acknowledge that to the forum. Fly, Bravo that was your best or one of your finest posts.

Daryl, how much money does Australia give for climate change

Who administers these climate programs?

Who accounts for the money being spent?

Whose pockets is this money lining?

Can you tell me where all that money goes for the Paris climate accord?

If America was still in the Paris Climate Accord, America would be paying 500 billion dollars a year for climate change?

Remember, a person in a free society can request an accountability for where the money is being spent?

TFLYTSNBN wrote:
Daryl wrote:Considering that this is a side discussion thread on a hard science fiction writer's web page, I believe it is appropriate to point out that ID is equivalent to hand wavium. Both are deus ex machina props.
No need to do your computing challenge fly, as it has been repeatedly done in extreme detail by various super computers, without having to make broad invalidating assumptions.
I freely admit that there are many vectors influencing heat transfer, and many inputs to climate change. That said, at the end of the day there is significant and geologically rapid change occurring that correlates with human population and activities.
When you consider the single input of a car, it could well be that the 80% of its energy that is wasted heat voided by its radiator may have as much influence as the CO2 out of the tail pipe. End result, more industrialised mankind activity equals more climate change.
I do challenge the assumption that we have to impoverish ourselves to clean up our act. Bet you drive something like a Ford F150, and not a more economical vehicle? My solar panels have meant no power bills for 12 years.
On the bigot accusation consider me guilty. In an infinite universe, with galaxies that seem to go on forever, apparently semi literate goat herders on one planet about 4000 years ago, worked out how it was all brought into being, that the entity responsible looked like them, liked them and made them its special friends. Supplying rules to keep it happy, and setting things up for their comfort.
Yeah, right?



I will address the most bigoted aspects of your posts first.
The premise of ID is NOT that God created the universe with its billions of galaxies and some 1eex20 stars just to enable one species of ignorant goat herders to exist. God created a universe that could enable life so that something in excess of 1eex15 intelligence species could exist and progress beyond herding goats. When we meet these other species, we will understand that the image of God has nothing to do with physical attributes.

The problem with your devotion to global warming theology is that people like you have become so devoted to your religion that you will ignore the blatant fraud of falsifying climate records. Climategate!

You also ignore the fundamental errors in the Global Circulation Models that have ignored some of the most fundamental factors that effect climate. You do not understand what those factors are because you refuse to accept my challenge. One example is how changes in Albedo effect climate. Even when they finally try to address Albedo by considering Arctic ice, they FUBAR their calculations by ignoring how Arctic ice acts as a thermal insulator that dramatically reduces the IR emissivity of the Arctic. These imbeciles continue to ignore the heat that is transported to the upper atmosphere via the mechanisms of evaporation, convection, radiation (optical depth of CO2 as well as H2O is very nearly zero at 20,000 feet) condensation and precipitation. The energy flow by this mechanism dwarfs the alleged radiative forcing from CO2 that is presumably amplified by CO2 allegedly increasing the concentration of H2O vapor. (BTW, this last point that conflicts with theory that has been successfully utilized by meteorologists for over a century could be tested by a relatively simple laboratory experiment. Show me the peer reviewed research article on such an experiment.)

You also ignore the implications of AGW theology. If CO2 is going to broil the planet, your solar panels to power your house and your more efficient car will not do diddly shit to save the planet. Bill Gates was somewhat infamous for his calculation of CO2 emissions from humans because it emphasized that given AGW assumptions, a profiund reduction in the human population is urgently needed. If the panicked AGW predictions were valid, simply reducing energy use per person and reducing birth rates to below replacement levels isn't going to save the planet. It will take a century for the planetary population to decline significantly from people aging and dying from natural causes. To avoid the AGW apocalypse, it is necessary to cull surplus populations. Since changes in the Earth's Albedo resulting from converting forests into farmland or desert have an even more profound effect on planetary climate than CO2 allegedly has, exterminating the populations of Third World countries is more effective than exterminating Europeans and Australians.

Guess who is going to be exterminated if the acolytes of Global Warming Theology have their way?
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Re: Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin
Post by Imaginos1892   » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:31 am

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The E wrote:Why are so many of your posts filled with wild generalizations about muslims? What are you, an islamophobe? That would explain much.

Why generalizations? Because every time I cite specifics on any subject you leftists squawk ANECDOTE!! ANECDOTE!! MEANS NOTHING!

How about the Moslem terrorist that stabbed a bunch of people in London yesterday?

I’ve been watching ‘Holmes + Holmes’, a TV show filmed in Canada about fixing houses for people after they’ve been fucked over by incompetent and/or larcenous contractors. The last few episodes have featured a couple whose house was in a deplorable condition, mainly because they couldn’t afford to hire proper contractors to do the necessary work. The wife has endometriosis, and her ‘free socialized health care’ costs them over $18,000 a year, leaving them barely enough to live on.

Why do patients in the U.S. wait three hours for an MRI scan, while patients in Canada wait three months?

But, of course, those are all just ANECDOTES!!

So, to you, specifics are meaningless anecdotes, and non-specifics are meaningless generalizations. How very convenient.

And you still haven’t addressed the issue of why your posts are full of childish insults, just flung bullshit and more insults to cause a distraction.

The E wrote:You heard it here first, folks: Climate models that take historical data into account are wrong.

Do you have precise measurements of solar activity spanning the last 700 years? Can you accurately quantify the effects of changes in solar activity on global temperatures? Because, you see, the sun does have some effect on climate.

Today we have satellites that continuously measure solar radiation. We have found that it varies hour by hour, day by day, year by year, and decade by decade. We have overwhelming evidence that it varies over the course of centuries and millennia, as well. We have proven that sunspots are a consistent indicator of solar activity, though not a precise one, and up until the last 70 years, counting sunspots was the best we could do. We have never been able to measure the sun during a period similar to the Maunder Minimum. We can make only rough estimates of how much heat the sun put into the atmosphere before those detailed measurements were possible.

We have determined that solar activity has been increasing since the early 1800s, and the sun is currently hotter than it has been for the last 8,000 years.

In addition, it was impossible to record precise temperatures before the thermometer was invented in 1709, or to measure air pressure before the barometer was invented in 1643. People looked at the sky, or listened to old folks complain about their aching bones. We can only estimate historical temperatures, and errors of a few degrees make big differences in those climate predictions.

Between the lack of data on solar activity and the absence of air pressure and temperature readings, yes, worthless is a fair description.

Climate is not a one-variable equation where X CO2 = Temp, and 1.5X CO2 = 1.5Temp, although the Global Warming Doomsayers are damn near treating it as such. They don’t even take into account the effects of increased cloud cover.

The E wrote:Hah, those silly scientists, never getting their stories straight. You ask them something, you get an answer, you ask the same question a year later, and they're telling you the opposite; just what are they good for, really?

The alarmists have been quite consistent about being wrong…

The E wrote:If the alternative is to rely on people like you, who seem to believe that any self-interest must be enlightened and therefore good, then yes.

And you Believe that all self-interest is inherently Eeevil — except the self-interest of those big-government authoritarians you practically worship. I think I see why. You in Europe are accustomed to being ruled by authoritarians, while our ancestors came to this country to be rid of the rule of kings, emperors and despots. Most of us do not want such rule reinstated.

Greedy businessmen can affect our lives only in limited ways. Even at their worst, we can stymie them by moving out of town, or to another state. Government, on the other hand, can take our money, our property, our rights, our freedom, and our very lives, wherever we go. Such appalling power MUST be kept under strict control — but the only mechanism we have to control the power of government IS the government. That is why our government was set up with limited power and built-in controls — but those safeguards are being broken down.

Maybe your government is comprised entirely of virtuous paragons and saints, but ours is full of greedy corrupt self-serving sociopathic narcissists, of which Hillary Clinton and, to a lesser extent, Bill, are prime examples. They already have too much power over our lives; giving them more would be profoundly stupid.

The E wrote:However: You wouldn't have been able to do that without a lot of government intervention to fund research and subsidize production.

More bullshit. Those solar panels, and the converter, were built by private companies seeking profit. They funded their own research into solar power, to make more profit. Almost all of the companies that did get money from the government were run by political hacks that knew nothing of science, engineering or business. They collapsed, and took our money with them.

Here in the U.S. the government does not dictate what products are sold on the open market by private companies. Other than by prohibiting some products, that is, or imposing fees and regulations that make other products unprofitable. And, of course, the endless, useless piles of government paperwork every business has to fill out.
———————————
If a business tries something, and it doesn't work, they have to stop doing it or they will go broke. When the government tries something that doesn't work, they will keep shoveling our money into it forever.
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