Russian “False-Flag” operations in the Ukraine

Joat42 wrote:

Arol wrote:https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-middle-east-turkey-moscow-sweden-49d5297a0dff391e5de9f24f6b3a390a

Didn’t see that one coming!
Thought if anyone would throw a spanner in the works it would be Orban of Hungary…but Erdogan?
One of the news commentators on Danish TV; who has extensive knowledge of Mid –East politics, did say to take it with a grain of salt.
That it may be mainly a stance taken for some domestic political gains.

The stated cause of his objection, ie the Scandinavians stance on the Kurds, is something Turkey have been griping about for years. If Erdogan now have a chance to "stick it" to them he will and it will also give him some domestic political gains.

The SOB has had months to bring up any qualms he’s had, and he’s said nothing right until the last moment! Then suddenly the age old Greek vs. Turk animosity is hauled out of the cupboard, together with the dissident Kurd s that have settled in Scandinavia.
The consensus right now is that he’s looking to make some kind ‘a deal.
But he’s sure pissed off a lot of movers and shakers.

Erdogan has been needing to be dealt with for years, dating back at least to the coup which he used as an excuse to round up thousands of political opponents, especially known academics. I.guess there are elections in Turkey. But Erdogan is a strong man, nothing more. I don't know if NATO has governance standards, but they should.

And speaking of the Kurds, nothing Trump did in his four years p.o. me off worse than his betrayal of the Kurds. Apart from Israel, our best ally, about the only one willing to pitch in and do their part...

Don

-

n7axw wrote:Erdogan has been needing to be dealt with for years, dating back at least to the coup which he used as an excuse to round up thousands of political opponents, especially known academics. I.guess there are elections in Turkey. But Erdogan is a strong man, nothing more. I don't know if NATO has governance standards, but they should.

And speaking of the Kurds, nothing Trump did in his four years p.o. me off worse than his betrayal of the Kurds. Apart from Israel, our best ally, about the only one willing to pitch in and do their part...

Don

-

It’s really quite diabolic what Erdogan has managed!
He waited until both Sweden and Finland had climbed out on branch.
Then this supposedly future ally and friend proceeds to sawing the branch off!!!
A commentator is reported to have heard a ranking civil servants reaction to Erdogan’s comments:
“Great, just frigging Great!!! This at a time where we need to project unity in face of Putin’s aggression!!!”
It’s doesn’t take much imagination to imagine Putin behind closed doors cackling like a demented hen!
First Orban now Erdogan…
https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive ... 022-05-14/

n7axw wrote:Erdogan has been needing to be dealt with for years, dating back at least to the coup which he used as an excuse to round up thousands of political opponents, especially known academics. I.guess there are elections in Turkey. But Erdogan is a strong man, nothing more. I don't know if NATO has governance standards, but they should.

(snip)

-

If they had governance standards, neither Franco's Spain nor Salazar's Portugal could have been members (and Portugal was a founding member).

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:If they had governance standards, neither Franco's Spain nor Salazar's Portugal could have been members (and Portugal was a founding member).

There was an economist some time back who analysed the countries of the EU when the Euro was introduced - apparently the only country that actually passed all the minimum requirements was the UK.
Guess which then-European country decided to retain their currency...

Michael Everett wrote:Guess which then-European country decided to retain their currency...

How is that working out right now

The E wrote:How is that working out right now

Well, we're certainly getting quite a lot of political future-credit with Ukraine and while our economy has indeed slowed down somewhat, we have yet to have a repeat of the mass-panic-buy that marked the start of Covid.

Overall, could be better, but it could have so easily been a lot worse. Stiff upper lip and all that. Keeping calm and carrying on is the order of the day (the Civil Service is freaking out at the planned job cuts, though).

Best recent news, we came second* in the Eurovision Song Contest! Massive congratulations to the Ukranian Kalush Orchestra and a Jolly Well Done to Sam Ryder.

*2019 and 2021 (2020 was cancelled), the UK came dead last. Yes, the songs we offered were fairly bad, but there seemed to be a teensy bit of tactical voting there too...

Out of interest, anyone else heard of the report in the Russian internal News that they had won the Eurovision? Not sure if it was official-official or social media...

Michael Everett wrote:...Out of interest, anyone else heard of the report in the Russian internal News that they had won the Eurovision? Not sure if it was official-official or social media...

If certain criteria are met, then there is a certain kind ’a twisted Russian version of truth and logic in the claim!
The main criteria being devoted followers and believers of The Truth According to Manifesto of Putin!
A manifesto whose main tenet is that there is no such entity as the Sovereign country of the Ukraine, it is and will always be a part of Russia.
Ergo! The Ukrainians who won the Melody Grand Prix were Russians, and therefore Russia won the contest!!!
But it does seem that Russia is having difficulties in “belling the cat”!!!

I did do a quick look about NATO requiring its members to be democracies... The answer is a "yes but..." Also included is language that says that countries that are advocating democratic values and progressing toward democracy can be included. What weaselly, meally mouthed language! What a loop hole! You could drive a freight truck though there!

I imagine that's how Turkey was included to start with...

Don

-

n7axw wrote:I did do a quick look about NATO requiring its members to be democracies... The answer is a "yes but..." Also included is language that says that countries that are advocating democratic values and progressing toward democracy can be included. What weaselly, meally mouthed language! What a loop hole! You could drive a freight truck though there!

I imagine that's how Turkey was included to start with...

Don

-

That wasn't at all the reason why Turkey could be inducted into NATO.

Turkey joined NATO in 1952 and was relatively egalitarian and "westernized" by that time due to Atatürk's legacy. It wasn't until the money/credit from the Marshall Plan and Truman Doctrine ran out in the late 50's that things started taking a turn for the worse which led to Prime minister Menderes plan to visit Moscow and ask for credit and that triggered the military coup of 1960 which led Turkey in to a slow downward spiral when it comes to democratic values which makes us question Turkey's (well, Erdogan's) motives these days.