Crimea and Beowulf

He'll with it. I will comment further.

When dealing with current politics, it is important to remember that every part of the planet has been inhabited and/or dominated by multiple peoples since CroMamags were replacing Neanderthals. (my personal favorite theory is that Neandertals with their bigger brains were smarter and as well as bigger and stronger but CroMag women were sexually receptive throughout their cycle rather merely when they were fertile which motivated CroMag males to hang around to help rear the children rather than run for the hills when CroMag women got cranky. This gave CroMags a competitive advantage)

Honorverse politics should be different because all colonies had no human inhabitants when the colonies were founded. There shouldn't be competing claims over "homeland". However; not all colonies were founded by only one ethnic or religious group such as Grayson. Even homogeneous Grayson experienced a schism and civil war. Colonies founded by multiple planets or ethnic/ religious groups might have some rather intense rivalries. Beawulf is one of the oldest colonies and seems to have been colonized predominantly by Asians. However; Asia is far from homogeneous (at least from the perspective of Asians) so there might be some ethnic minorities that the SLN propaganda can exploit to justify intervention.

60% Russian, I read, but still an obvious majority.
30% Ukrainian.
10% Crimean Tatars, who are presumed to prefer Ukraine
rule to Russian, if they cannot have independence.

Crimea was put into Ukraine in 1954-6 by Kruschev,
who was himself a Ukrainian, and who wanted to prove
his newly-acquired powers.

If Russia chose to support "Crimea Independence" instead
of annexation, then recent precedents support that:
Norway, Slovakia, ex-Yugoslavia, S Ossetia, Abi... (sic).
Russia's case would be even stronger, had they not
invaded Chechnia (the first time). That first invasion
of Chechnia damages their case, but doesn't destroy it.
However, this time there seems to be a matter of a
Treaty with Ukraine that contradicts this plebisite.

HTM

Direwolf18 wrote:Thats actually a really interesting comparison.

Although I personally don't believe Russia will fudge the vote, or have any need to. The peninsula is almost entirely ethnic Russian.

Even if we don't see it referenced I won't be surprised if we see some parallels in the responses.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:60% Russian, I read, but still an obvious majority.
30% Ukrainian.
10% Crimean Tatars, who are presumed to prefer Ukraine
rule to Russian, if they cannot have independence.

Crimea was put into Ukraine in 1954-6 by Kruschev,
who was himself a Ukrainian, and who wanted to prove
his newly-acquired powers.

If Russia chose to support "Crimea Independence" instead
of annexation, then recent precedents support that:
Norway, Slovakia, ex-Yugoslavia, S Ossetia, Abi... (sic).
Russia's case would be even stronger, had they not
invaded Chechnia (the first time). That first invasion
of Chechnia damages their case, but doesn't destroy it.
However, this time there seems to be a matter of a
Treaty with Ukraine that contradicts this plebisite.

HTM

Direwolf18 wrote:Thats actually a really interesting comparison.

Although I personally don't believe Russia will fudge the vote, or have any need to. The peninsula is almost entirely ethnic Russian.

Even if we don't see it referenced I won't be surprised if we see some parallels in the responses.

There is also the interesting question - do Russian speakers necessarily want to be part of Putin's Russia?

I thought Beowulf was settled by a multitude of people, not just those of Asian descent. I mean, one of the main medical dynasties was started by Sebastiana Ramirez y Moyano, which I presume is not of Asian descent, and the other, George Benton, is a very English name, also doubtfully Asian.

Not to mention the name of the planet is named after a moderately well-known poem that's depicting events in Scandinavia, and their capital, Columbia, is a reference to America. It seems a little bit much to assume that one family, the Chous, dictates that their ethnicity make up the majority of the population on the planet. This doesn't even include the probably-decent amount of ex-slaves who are citizens or just living there. As well, the Beowulfan Survey Corps group we saw in Torch of Freedom seemed to be made up of more than just Asians.

Is there text stating this?

namelessfly wrote:<snippet> Beawulf is one of the oldest colonies and seems to have been colonized predominantly by Asians. However; Asia is far from homogeneous (at least from the perspective of Asians) so there might be some ethnic minorities that the SLN propaganda can exploit to justify intervention.

I have not read the other posts, so if I repeat stuff, OPPS! As the re reading of the HH series continues, I see lots of parallels with today's political situations. Is the author(s) making sometimes non subtle political statements? Oh yeah!

The fun thing is that I agree with all of them. This is one reason out of many that makes the books so enjoyable. The human conditions will never change....no matter where you go or how far into the future. There you are. HB of CJ (old coot)

Uroboros wrote:I thought Beowulf was settled by a multitude of people, not just those of Asian descent. I mean, one of the main medical dynasties was started by Sebastiana Ramirez y Moyano, which I presume is not of Asian descent, and the other, George Benton, is a very English name, also doubtfully Asian.

A Spanish double-barreled surname like "Ramirez y Moyano" can indicate Philippine origin, which is arguably "Asian". Similarly, French, Portuguese, English, and Dutch names are undoubtedly spread throughout those nations' former colonial empires, and there are plenty of Russian surnames of Alaskans with obvious Inuit heritage.

It's quite possible for the majority of the overall original Beowulf settlers to have come from Asia, and that the settlers with medical education were of thoroughly mixed backgrounds.


As for the name of the planet itself, that might have come from the people who originally surveyed what they thought was Sigma Draconis (but according to how far Beowulf is from Sol in canon, can't possibly be the real σDra of astronomy). That one of the principal cities is Grendel and another Columbia doesn't argue one way or the other, as Grendel might have been one of the sites set up by the surveyors as a base camp, which the settlers retained.

TheMonster wrote:

Uroboros wrote:I thought Beowulf was settled by a multitude of people, not just those of Asian descent. I mean, one of the main medical dynasties was started by Sebastiana Ramirez y Moyano, which I presume is not of Asian descent, and the other, George Benton, is a very English name, also doubtfully Asian.

A Spanish double-barreled surname like "Ramirez y Moyano" can indicate Philippine origin, which is arguably "Asian". Similarly, French, Portuguese, English, and Dutch names are undoubtedly spread throughout those nations' former colonial empires, and there are plenty of Russian surnames of Alaskans with obvious Inuit heritage.

It's quite possible for the majority of the overall original Beowulf settlers to have come from Asia, and that the settlers with medical education were of thoroughly mixed backgrounds.


As for the name of the planet itself, that might have come from the people who originally surveyed what they thought was Sigma Draconis (but according to how far Beowulf is from Sol in canon, can't possibly be the real σDra of astronomy). That one of the principal cities is Grendel and another Columbia doesn't argue one way or the other, as Grendel might have been one of the sites set up by the surveyors as a base camp, which the settlers retained.

Yes, it's possible that all those names are of Asian descent. But there is no text evidence that I know of that that Beowulf was settled by Asian colonists. It's just as likely that they are all American names (including Chou), or international.

SWM wrote:Yes, it's possible that all those names are of Asian descent. But there is no text evidence that I know of that that Beowulf was settled by Asian colonists. It's just as likely that they are all American names (including Chou), or international.

That's basically my point. It's possible, but probable? It's pretty doubtful. I'd also press that the (albeit incredibly unwilling) daughter colony of Mesa definitely has a very large mix of different types of people. Herlander Simoes has blonde hair and hazel eyes, which is a fairly Nordic set of features, and Jack McBryde is a ginger of probably Irish descent. Albrecht Detweiler is a direct clone of his ancestor, and he has very Germanic looks, as one would expect from the name (I'm going by what's on the Wiki, which is from one of the French covers. Can we get these?!) Definitely no Asiatic influence there.

Crimea is historically borderland between South of Black Sea and Eastern Europe. Roman Empire, Byzantines, Ottoman Empire and the last "stand" of the "Golden Horde" all had outposts in the Crimea.

Britain and France fought the Romanovs in support of the Ottomans in the Crimea during the 1840s, and lost.

This is an area which historically is stuck betwixt and between.

Beowulf is a different case. A charter member of the SL, one of the moral centers of the SL and a research and development center. IT would be like Smolensk trying to secede from Russia.

kenl511 wrote:
Beowulf is a different case. A charter member of the SL, one of the moral centers of the SL and a research and development center. IT would be like Smolensk trying to secede from Russia.

I think a more apt example would be if Great Britain or Germany decided to secede from the EU. Something the Prime Minister of GB promised he would hold a vote on, and then backed away from it when it became pretty clear that yea, a pretty strong majority would vote to GTFO.