Country Building 101

ksandgren wrote:I don't think Daryl was complaining about just US celebrities. The Aussies have exactly the same situation. What Greg Norman made as a golfer or Rod Laver as a tennis star or Nicole Kidman as a movie star is a similar situation to what we have here. Why A-Rod could make more in a year as a baseball player than the entire staff at the National Institute of Health is a natural valid question.

I agree. But then again Namelessfly is probably doing the same.

Which gets to the question. How the heck do you convince the populace reward science versus sports?

I have a vague idea how that happened for the US post WW2 but for some oil rich country in the middle east? I don't know. How does Isreal do it?

Funny this topic got me reading Kratman and Carrera. Which offers a couple of ways to do it. The problem with that is his method will never work in the real world. Seems like requirement one is a super intelligent, rich bastard with morals I despise.

Good story but using it for reality is ... something not good, IMO.

So how do you get the kids and people of the back end of nowhere to expend the effort to become scientists. To reward the guy who comes up with the tech to turn salt water fresh for little cost in energy or the like.

Without it just turning into another option for corruption. Sports and corruption in a lot of ways epitomizes it, I think.

Honestly I don't know.

Thanks for the thought material,
T2M

ksandgren wrote:I don't think Daryl was complaining about just US celebrities. The Aussies have exactly the same situation. What Greg Norman made as a golfer or Rod Laver as a tennis star or Nicole Kidman as a movie star is a similar situation to what we have here. Why A-Rod could make more in a year as a baseball player than the entire staff at the National Institute of Health is a natural valid question.

It would help if Geeks could get laid as easily as the Jocks or even the folks who were gifted in Drama and Music.

namelessfly wrote:

ksandgren wrote:I don't think Daryl was complaining about just US celebrities. The Aussies have exactly the same situation. What Greg Norman made as a golfer or Rod Laver as a tennis star or Nicole Kidman as a movie star is a similar situation to what we have here. Why A-Rod could make more in a year as a baseball player than the entire staff at the National Institute of Health is a natural valid question.

It would help if Geeks could get laid as easily as the Jocks or even the folks who were gifted in Drama and Music.

Zuckerberg does pretty well both with the ladies and financially. My teenage daughter likes being called a geek. The times, they are a changin', 'fly.

You guys may have already covered this further upthread than I read, but in the developing world even those who find and nurture a love of medicine or engineering find themselves finding employment in the first world where they are appreciated even if paid little by first world standards but a lot by the standards in their home country. For a while I was working down under and members of the staff at the local hospital were from Uganda and Kenya. They moved within the commonwealth to find gainful employment because their home countries didn't value them, even though those countries were desperately in need of more medical professionals.

Even if you can get through to the government the need for such people, the brain drain will continue without clamping down and taking away on a lot of basic rights. It makes it really hard to build a country when everyone you get trained runs at first opportunity.

ksandgren wrote:You guys may have already covered this further upthread than I read, but in the developing world even those who find and nurture a love of medicine or engineering find themselves finding employment in the first world where they are appreciated even if paid little by first world standards but a lot by the standards in their home country. For a while I was working down under and members of the staff at the local hospital were from Uganda and Kenya. They moved within the commonwealth to find gainful employment because their home countries didn't value them, even though those countries were desperately in need of more medical professionals.

Even if you can get through to the government the need for such people, the brain drain will continue without clamping down and taking away on a lot of basic rights. It makes it really hard to build a country when everyone you get trained runs at first opportunity.

Keep in mind that in some countries, the security situation makes it difficult for anyone even if their native to have lots of money. I think most of us, when we bring up our economic solutions, we assume a solution to the security issue has already been found and implemented. Keeping an educated work force within your own country is a difficult task. The advantages to moving elsewhere will almost always be greater until the country develops. People with more money once more things, these things are more easily found in developed countries. In developing countries these things make one a target, either physically through kidnapping attempts etc., Or politically, via laws and legislation that may end up taking away the wealth and giving it to poor. Very often this is a temporary solution to domestic political troubles, that politicians will use to gain political brownie points with the population.

We have the later security problem right here in America.

Darman wrote:

ksandgren wrote:You guys may have already covered this further upthread than I read, but in the developing world even those who find and nurture a love of medicine or engineering find themselves finding employment in the first world where they are appreciated even if paid little by first world standards but a lot by the standards in their home country. For a while I was working down under and members of the staff at the local hospital were from Uganda and Kenya. They moved within the commonwealth to find gainful employment because their home countries didn't value them, even though those countries were desperately in need of more medical professionals.

Even if you can get through to the government the need for such people, the brain drain will continue without clamping down and taking away on a lot of basic rights. It makes it really hard to build a country when everyone you get trained runs at first opportunity.

Keep in mind that in some countries, the security situation makes it difficult for anyone even if their native to have lots of money. I think most of us, when we bring up our economic solutions, we assume a solution to the security issue has already been found and implemented. Keeping an educated work force within your own country is a difficult task. The advantages to moving elsewhere will almost always be greater until the country develops. People with more money once more things, these things are more easily found in developed countries. In developing countries these things make one a target, either physically through kidnapping attempts etc., Or politically, via laws and legislation that may end up taking away the wealth and giving it to poor. Very often this is a temporary solution to domestic political troubles, that politicians will use to gain political brownie points with the population.

ksandgren wrote:You guys may have already covered this further upthread than I read, but in the developing world even those who find and nurture a love of medicine or engineering find themselves finding employment in the first world where they are appreciated even if paid little by first world standards but a lot by the standards in their home country. For a while I was working down under and members of the staff at the local hospital were from Uganda and Kenya. They moved within the commonwealth to find gainful employment because their home countries didn't value them, even though those countries were desperately in need of more medical professionals.

Even if you can get through to the government the need for such people, the brain drain will continue without clamping down and taking away on a lot of basic rights. It makes it really hard to build a country when everyone you get trained runs at first opportunity.

Isn't Wealth redistribution wonderful?


Soon the most talented people will be fleeing the US.

biochem wrote:Some of the recent posts regarding Saudi Arabia got me thinking. If you were the dictator of an oil rich 3rd world country how would you spend your trillions to build the country into a first world country that would remain a first world country when the oil runs out in 100 years?

-snip-

First things first - hello all, long time no see and so on...

Now to the point.

You people amaze me sometimes I guess it's your geography speaking, or maybe it's your history plus the geography thing - I dont really know.

1.The Absolutely, Ultimately First Thing to do is build up your Army and Navy. No matter what they were like while you were a 3rd world dictator(and they most probably were just good enough to keep your population in control), what you intend to build will be a delicious piece open for grabs by your neighbours. And considering where all these oil rich 3rd world countries are located you're guaranteed to have some very "interesting" neighbours. You're gonna need that Army and Navy bad. Consider also that the army is a very good ground/tool for experimenting in social reforms - I have read somewhere that the decision makers in a society are usually the males in the 20-45 age region, and you can put a lot of them through army training. And yes, that means you'll have to start with a conscript army and slowly transform it into one of highly qualified specialist volonteers.
2.The second thing you do is make sure your population can feed itself - you cannot afford to depend on import for that - it is too serious a tool against you. Besides, well fed people are going to be much more open to changes that have unclear results - and believe me, the results of your changes are going to be unclear to the majority of your population.
3.Third comes religion - if you have a dominant one and it has any influence in your country you need to make sure it stands firmly behind your efforts. No matter what that religion is, you have to:
a)separate it from the state, if it is not already separated
b) make sure you have control over it or at least insure the cooperation of its leaders for your future endeavors - you can loosen that control later but you'll absolutely need it in the begining.
c) make sure its core beliefs support your incoming reforms, change them if you must and do it peacefully - otherwise you're in for a heap of trouble.
Religion is a VERY powerfull tool - and you need to be sure it is in your corner.
4. This will be somewhat foggy, largely because it depends on the particular country/situation. The fourth thing you do is make sure you have the oposition in controll. Now, you were a dictator, so you might already have done that , at least to some extent. However, you need to make sure that all the opposition - current and future(meaning the people who are currently on your side but will be oposed to your reforms) - is in control. Remember what are you changing your counry from . Again, you may (in fact will have to) loosen that controll in the fiture, but in the begining you do not need any distractions.

Now that you have a solid base you can start with all these other changes - and be reasonably confident that your country is not going to explode right under you or be taken away from you by some "good old neighbour".

None of these things are easy, and none of them can be accomplished fast - but then again if you can't take a joke ... you know the rest .

As a geek, us geeks do quite well these days...


Yeah, jocks still get girls, but from looking at the people i have known who were jocks and geeks, the geks have tended to get the better partners, longer relationships, and paid slightly better, for 20 something year olds. It is changing, just slowly.

namelessfly wrote:

It would help if Geeks could get laid as easily as the Jocks or even the folks who were gifted in Drama and Music.

The geeks do get long term partners because they are willing to make a commitment.

However; the jocks still get to have a much larger number of short term partners.

The geeks have to accept the possibility that the long term partner that they are committing to had been a jock's short term partner. This dramatically increase the risk of a subsequent fling.

The Darwinian consequences are obvious.

Spacekiwi wrote:As a geek, us geeks do quite well these days...


Yeah, jocks still get girls, but from looking at the people i have known who were jocks and geeks, the geks have tended to get the better partners, longer relationships, and paid slightly better, for 20 something year olds. It is changing, just slowly.

namelessfly wrote:

It would help if Geeks could get laid as easily as the Jocks or even the folks who were gifted in Drama and Music.