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Freedom: Comments and discussion.

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Freedom: Comments and discussion.
Post by DDHv   » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:13 pm

DDHv
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Just found two articles on freedom. Since the FRT sub-forum has no thread on freedom at present, here you are.

http://townhall.com/columnists/johnstos ... s-n1920463

http://townhall.com/columnists/rebeccah ... ampaign=nl

An inclusive economy, innovation, and many other things are not possible without human freedom. The FRT sub-forum should have a thread about it.

My thinking: God created humans as real people, in a real universe, who can make real choices, with real consequences. The difference between liberty and license is considering all the known consequences before making the choices.

We have enough problems with unexpected consequences of our choices, we should at least eliminate those we know lead to poor results.
Douglas Hvistendahl
Retired technical nerd

Dumb mistakes are very irritating.
Smart mistakes go on forever
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Re: Freedom: Comments and discussion.
Post by Caliban   » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:25 pm

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Would this be a bad time to bring up the subject of 'Hamiltonianism"?

I say this because it would seem that it's the system we've been stuck with. And If you have not read the 'Federalist' papers by Hamilton, I would earnestly recommend you should. It does explain a great deal.

As a personal observation, they scared the stuffing out of me. And if you believe in a Free Country,they should scare the whatever out of you.

as L.Neil Smith has said, I offer no apologies to Hamilton whatsoever.The only thing I might offer would be 20 feet of rope, and a tree with a view.

Just a personal viewpoint.
====================================


"A wise man speaks because he has something to say; A Fool speaks because he has to say something."
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Re: Freedom: Comments and discussion.
Post by Imaginos1892   » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:56 pm

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I'd like to start with The Bill Of No Rights which can be found in so many places and so many versions that providing a link would be a disservice. One of my favorites is:

Freedom means freedom for everybody, not just you. If you claim the right to limit other peoples' freedom, you grant them the right to limit yours to a similar extent.
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If a business tries something that doesn't work, they either stop doing it or they will go broke. If the government tries something that doesn't work, they will just keep shoveling our money into it forever.
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Internal barbarians?
Post by DDHv   » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:23 pm

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Worth thinking about:

http://townhall.com/columnists/bethanyb ... ampaign=nl

Wonder if we are heading down a like road? Remember in Piper's "Space Viking" how the internal barbarians brought down some civilizations? DW's Haven Legislaturists, Silesia's greedy governors, and Solar League Mandarins all show ways internal barbarians can damage their people that have happened during history.

I prefer the Safehold and Honorverse stories because of an enjoyment of innovation and technical improvement. These cannot happen for long when the culture is filled with internal rot. It is called "Social Capital."

Real freedom is only possible with enough people with self discipline based on reality.

Start with your self, it is easiest and pays the best returns.
Douglas Hvistendahl
Retired technical nerd

Dumb mistakes are very irritating.
Smart mistakes go on forever
Unless you test your assumptions!
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Re: Freedom: Comments and discussion.
Post by cthia   » Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:49 pm

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Give me liberty, or give me death. Which did we get? Freedom will only ring true if those who are responsible are cast with the right mettle. Freedom must encompass a mix of all people — regardless of race, creed, color or national origin. Freedom must consist of a conglomeration to make the idea ring strong and true. Or it will only crack, like the Liberty Bell itself.

Together we stand. Divided we fall. If only freedom for one, then bondage for all. —Cthia


The LIBERTY BELL cracked on it's very first ringing because, freedom ... did ... not ... ring ...true. How could the bell ring true, when an entire race were slaves.

For evil to prevail, good only has to do nothing.

Stand one, stand all, or together we'll fall. —Cthia

In 1751, the Pennsylvania Provincial Assembly—part of the state’s colonial government—paid around 100 pounds for a large bell to hang in its new State House (later known as Independence Hall). Cast at London’s Whitechapel Bell Foundry, the bell arrived in Philadelphia in August 1752. Because the metal was too brittle, it cracked during a test strike and had to be recast twice. The final version—made of 70 percent copper, 25 percent tin and small amounts of lead, zinc, arsenic, gold and silver—weighed around 2,080 pounds and measured 12 feet in circumference around the lip and 3 feet from lip to crown. On July 8, 1776, the bell was rung to celebrate the first public reading of the Declaration of Independence. After the British invasion of Philadelphia, the bell was hidden in a church until it could be safely returned to the State House. A popular icon of the new nation and its independence, it wasn’t called the “Liberty Bell” until the 1830s, when an abolitionist group adopted it as a symbol of their own cause.

So when did the Liberty Bell get its famous crack? That’s not exactly clear. According to one of many stories, it first cracked back in 1824, during the visit of the Revolutionary War hero Marquis de Lafayette. Another story holds that it fractured later that year, while tolling to signal a fire. One of the most popular legends claims that the bell cracked during the funeral of Chief Justice John Marshall in 1835, but newspaper accounts of the funeral do not mention such an incident. Whatever the truth is, it seems the bell was certainly damaged by 1846, when (according to official city records) Philadelphia’s mayor requested that the bell be rung on George Washington’s birthday. Though attempts were made to repair an existing fracture in the bell for the occasion, and the bell reportedly tolled loud and clear at first, it subsequently cracked beyond repair and had to be taken out of service. After being moved to a pavilion near Independence Hall in 1976 (the bicentennial of the Declaration of Independence), in 2003 the Liberty Bell was relocated to Liberty Bell Center in Independence National Historic Park, where millions of visitors view its famous crack each year.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Freedom: Comments and discussion.
Post by Lord Skimper   » Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:14 pm

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Freedom only works if everyone thinks relatively the same way. It still leads to problems, Northern Ireland was a Free society, sort of.

Everyone thought the same way, sort of.

World governments will only work when everyone has a similar way of thinking and freedom of some form.

Perhaps not political freedom.

Societal Freedom.

Economic Freedom.

etc...

Unfortunately no system works for everyone and freedom is a luxury that few can afford to lend out to others let alone everyone.

Should the world adopt the communism of Star Trek. A one party Federation with Basic Living Stipend and extra privileged through work and a Star Navy based upon semi Military Fascist Dictatorships. With no main or official religion basing such practices as home or local only considerations.

or the

Star Empire of Manticore with a privileged few and Semi Constitutional Monarchy. With a Royal Military Navy Army Marine... Again Freedom is doled out in small measure. Here and there, Religion again in a small home local way is allowed, Economic and Societal and even a bit more Political within boundaries.

Other Freedoms exist in the USA for instance. Where personal freedom is triumphed, if scaled back recently, and Economic and political freedom hailed albeit Political is carefully controlled. As shown by the 3rd party option and Ross Perot who never had a chance at real power. Even if he had the most votes.

Canada has more political Freedom where small parties can get to rule our Country or hold significant sway. We lack many freedoms and suffer from Bureaucratic Institutions that kind of operate in the back ground with certain main stream Media. Swaying public opinion one way or another.

Freedom is a luxury you can have in small measures and only in certain ways. It is not something to consider for world Governance but rather a luxury to be doled out to those who qualify or for the system that brings out better options.
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Re: Freedom: Comments and discussion.
Post by DDHv   » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:37 am

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From:

http://townhall.com/columnists/johnnant ... e-n1922257

If we are not all equal before the law, maintaining the fundamental notion of innocence until guilt is proven, then we have in an instant devolved to the wretched state of subjects, vulnerable to the whims of a petulant oligarchy.


They almost starved.

So William Bradford and the Pilgrims instituted one historic change that was to ensure the flourishing success of the colony and change American history forever.

Here's what they did...

They abandoned socialist agriculture and private planting was established the following year. Here is Governor Bradford's own account from the original source documents:

"This was very successful. It made all hands very industrious, so that much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been by any means the Governor or any other could devise, and saved him a great deal of trouble, and gave far better satisfaction. The women now went willingly into the field, and took their little ones with them to plant corn, while before they would allege weakness and inability; and to have compelled them would have been thought great tyranny and oppression.

The failure of this experiment of communal service, which was tried for several years, and by good and honest men, proves the emptiness of the theory of Plato and other ancients, applauded by some of later times--that the taking away of private property, and the possession of it in community, by a commonwealth, would make a state happy and flourishing; as if they were wiser than God. For in this instance, community of property (so far as it went) was found to breed much confusion and discontent and retard much employment which would have been to the general benefit and comfort."
Of Plymouth Plantation: Bradford's History of the Plymouth Settlement 1608-1650 should be required reading for every American. But chances are, you've never seen it in the public school curriculum. And the fact is, even most private, Christian schools don't use this incredible, original source document when teaching American history.


Source unknown:

Real freedom is not the ability to do whatever you want, but the ability to do what you should.


Real freedom allows some people to become good examples, and others to become horrible examples.

Start with yourself, it is the simplest and pays the best results. A government or culture may support freedom, but it cannot produce it.

Remember AE Van Vogt's Null-A series? He postulated a society where a method of training people to think before acting and to thoughtfully adapt to changes in the environment was the key element. Wistful ;)

Fiction is our cultural imagination. Science fiction is our cultural imagination about futures. The best science fiction helps us think through things that we may encounter later. Panic occurs when there is no idea what to do, thinking ahead, even as fiction, can help prevent it.

If you haven't read Orwell's "1984" or "Animal Farm," do so.

BTW, in the Honorverse, it looks like Manticore is designed to have a large measure of freedom because the monarchy needs to support the commons as a counterweight to the aristocracy. Aristocracy tends to go for power. The commons often can be satisfied with true justice, since they don't always get it. Therefore someone at the top can find it useful to aim for justice and mercy for the masses. Also, mercy should be a tempering of justice to individual cases, not a political tool.

The NT biblical view is that mercy met satisfied justice at the cross, where God, in Jesus Christ, took the death we earned by our sins. Check out Psalm 22, which is the first non obvious thing I spotted for myself in the Bible.
Douglas Hvistendahl
Retired technical nerd

Dumb mistakes are very irritating.
Smart mistakes go on forever
Unless you test your assumptions!
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