Under ground military bases

HB of CJ wrote:...

Manual crank type ventilation fan. Squirrel cage type. Thick HEPA filters. We did not have enough cooling air. Breathing air OK. The beginning temperature inside was about 58F. After 72 hours it was 88F. One hundred percent humidity. Not enough cooling ventilation.

I was giving out heavy tranks towards the end. We wanted to kill each other. We made it but barely. Clothed at the beginning. Naked at the end. Coed. Our bodies were the least of our concerns. My failed feeble point here is that until you have done it ... do not comment.

...

Then clearly they had not properly tested their shelter before that. That´s essentially a planning and engineering issue, not some impossibly unsolvable problem.

The norm here was to use the surrounding stone as heatsinks, combined with selfregulating evaporationbased cooling, no need for rivers. When you have a hundred cubic meters of rock per person to drop the heat in, it´s just a matter of engineering.

As far as the mega super deep maximum disaster civilization ending military and civilian bunkers existing is anybodies guess.

Not really.

Cheyenne Mountain in SE CO USA still works. One mile in, one mile down. Solid granite. Do others exist? Anybody got any inside info? Fracking misinformation?

Sweden has a couple of places like that, but not for squirreling away a handful of selfproclaimed VIPs, for the simple reason that it doesn´t really work.
Like i wrote before, anything that requires many years of shelter is so extremely bad already that it doesn´t really matter if you survive the first 10 years or not, because your NATURAL lifespan will be over before there´s anything remotely resembling a nation or society again.

The idea of stashing away a post apocalypse "seed population" has been looked at by many countries, and essentially been dumped, because it´s just not realistic.

Tenshinai: Respectfully once again you blind us with your understanding. We did not test beforehand our blast and fallout shelter. That was the point of the whole horrible 72 hours. We were conducting a live experiment. But then of course one living 8000 miles away would know more about it and thank you.

Also perhaps a refresher course in thermodynamics would help us also. Cooling is the big thing. The surrounding soil here at about 43N in SW OR USA is right at 58F. As an exercise, please help us calculate the heat absorption for the area of a round steel can 84" in diameter with flat ends about 240 inches long.

One adult human puts out about 100-125 watts of heat per hour. Do the math. Like already said, we had breathing air only. We did not have ventilation air. That was the point of our endeavor. It got to about 88F. Actually doing hard science tends sometimes to be this way. By actually doing rather than commenting.

The experiment was to determine how hot it would get venting with only a hand powered squirrel cage fan. About 30cfm continuous . It got very humid. Dripping humid. We went in prepared. Got through it but it was not fun. Conclusions? It takes over 300cfm per person to cool with 6 people inside our shelter.

The cold rock or soil will not do it. Not by an order of magnitude. Not with the high number density we experienced by intent. Deep redoubts need big cooling facilities. Air to water cooling. Thus the needed rivers to cool the old tech deep redoubts. Now you know more. Thank you for your input.

The more VIPS underground for a longer period, the more cooling needed. The number per 1000 cubic feet will determine how much energy will be needed to keep the folks alive and healthy. The food and water is easy. Cooling and air NBC filtering will be the hard items to address. The deeper the redoubt the worserer.

Everybody knows about Pole Shift. Well, almost everybody. A physical catastrophic realignment. Possibly 30 degrees or more. Some good evidence to support such. I am assigning you homework. Consider the HAB theory. Interesting subject. Extremely low probability. Up there with Big Foot and mega tsunamis.

Big foot we will leave for another time. Arrrauuuuhh!

You tend to cut and pillage on this excellent forum, particularly about subjects you know little or nothing about. Are you trolling? You need to consider what you are doing. You are diluting the subject matter. It would be more fun to add rather than tear down. You can do so. Just some input. Respectfully.

I can not spend the time here. Too many other activities of daily living. Hope everybody understands this. HB

HB of CJ wrote:Everybody knows about Pole Shift. Well, almost everybody. A physical catastrophic realignment. Possibly 30 degrees or more. Some good evidence to support such. I am assigning you homework. Consider the HAB theory. Interesting subject. Extremely low probability. Up there with Big Foot and mega tsunamis.

HAB theory you say.

Like that one theory posited by one guy who wrote two books in the 70s that has NEVER been substantiated or proven? That theory?

niethil wrote:If you are interested not just in the engineering part but also in the sociological part of shelters, you might want to take a look at some of the reports of the Mass Observation. I have never been able to go through the whole thing - only read a small part because it was quoted in something else, the whole bundle would take too long - but there must be some historians that did.

niethil,
Thank you for sharing this link... I had not known of the project but have a "distant relative" of the concept in a story that I have been working on.
It seems to me that, if we intended to "save" a percentage of the population in an 'ark' like habitat it would be of greater value to select more randomly from across the entire population than to try with all the VIP's... survival requires that hands get dirty not that we leave things for the hired help...

I also want to think more about how the need to cool the habitat will be handled... though I was planing on a relatively short time line on Earth... and my habitats would only be partly buried. These would be where the survivors of a near hit/capture event where volcanoes erupt all around the Earth. My event would be an extinction of humans unless they cooperate like never before and is only prevented by the fledgling space based industry having developed a modification of TBM planed to build bases on Luna. This industrial base in in L4 and capable to turn out one of these units per week at the time that the are needed but... "Women and children first" then medical professionals, engineers, teachers (including spiritual guides), artists and musicians as prioritized occupants of these habitats. VIPs and military leaders build bases outside and provide protection.
I know this seems back asswards and more of a pipe dream than any reality I see in the news.

The Mass Observationprogram seems to be aware that the richness of who we are is more determined by the typical person than by the VIPs (though I have not read the entire article yet either, I will be back to it)

Thanks again

SNIP from: HB of CJ Captain of the List

As far as the mega super deep maximum disaster civilization ending military and civilian bunkers existing is anybodies guess. Cheyenne Mountain in SE CO USA still works. One mile in, one mile down. Solid granite. Do others exist? Anybody got any inside info? Fracking misinformation?

Go to the various NON CENSORED earthquake sites and see where all the little earthquakes are happening in places where they should not be. The excuses given are fracking for natural gas. Only problem is there is no gas there. Digging more deep reboubts? Dunno. You decide. Fun.

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I attended a public informational meeting last night regarding a proposed power plant in the next town to the east of where I live. Unfortunately, the plant is also over the state line so all we could do was become informed and infuriated... http://www.providencejournal.com/articl ... /150809749
The plant would be located near an existing natural gas pipeline but the plan is to install a new pipe line to the area of PA where their gas will be provided by fracking the old oil fields.

I asked if it would not be more profitable to build the power plant in PA and run the electricity to Boston and was told that the policies that created the National Grid won't let that happen. It seems that now the electricity has to be produced in the section of the grid where it will be used.
When I was a teen, the entire northeast went into a blackout when someone at Niagara Falls power plant did something wrong...

This is another example of the VIPs know so much that we have to save them when it all falls in the crapper.

I am reading "The Fall" by R.J. Pineiro... only got to page 32 but in the first chapter I already find that I like Jack and Angela Taylor and find the protagonist General Hastings to be the worst kind of power hungry idiot... he already told a MIT PhD that he knew more than she did but it was classified and that to disobey him is treason. He also told her that he did not have a PhD but he "owned" people that do.
The problem with this is that I have known people as full of themselves as he is.
He is defiantly on the do not invite and do not preserve list but he is also the type that would feel he should be in the bunker when it all falls apart.

I believe now that when I make an intelligent joke regarding the HAB theory, it is not intelligently accepted as a joke. Do the words low probability and right up there with Big Foot and Mega Tsunamis ring a bell? A small bell? Any bell? Perhaps I am joking over folks heads here. Do I have to repeat myself? Do I? Duhh. HB

Tenshinai: PEM to follow. HB I spend too much time on the computer. This may not continue. No hard feelings intended.

HB of CJ wrote:I believe now that when I make an intelligent joke regarding the HAB theory, it is not intelligently accepted as a joke. Do the words low probability and right up there with Big Foot and Mega Tsunamis ring a bell? A small bell? Any bell? Perhaps I am joking over folks heads here. Do I have to repeat myself? Do I? Duhh. HB

Tenshinai: PEM to follow. HB I spend too much time on the computer. This may not continue. No hard feelings intended.

Have you noticed that it is difficult to get people (the majority) to read and consider all aspects of your train of thought if you have more than one point in the eMail? It seems that the "modern man" has the attention span of Sesame Street and will not hear, much less consider the points you raise unless they all have some variation of an eight foot tall big yellow bird to focus their attention.

I am also guilty.

HB of CJ wrote:Also perhaps a refresher course in thermodynamics would help us also. Cooling is the big thing. The surrounding soil here at about 43N in SW OR USA is right at 58F.

Of course cooling by itself is a "big thing", there are however a number of options to deal with it.

One of which is to build your shelter inside solid stone, because then you only need basic engineering to use that as a heatsink.

HB of CJ wrote:Tenshinai: Respectfully once again you blind us with your understanding. We did not test beforehand our blast and fallout shelter. That was the point of the whole horrible 72 hours. We were conducting a live experiment.

Well, i AM drawing on the results of "live" tests done here in the 40s and 50s.
Thorough testing, because of how they were starting to seriously build underground structures here then.

Also some from earlier or even MUCH earlier, because as i said before, Sweden has bedrock stone just about everywhere to work with, so the first underground military bases here was built before USA was a separate nation.

HB of CJ wrote:Tenshinai: Respectfully once again you blind us with your understanding. We did not test beforehand our blast and fallout shelter. That was the point of the whole horrible 72 hours. We were conducting a live experiment.

Huh, that´s about 31C, hot but not horrible.
Though with the inability to get rid of humidity that made it worse of course.

HB of CJ wrote:The cold rock or soil will not do it. Not by an order of magnitude. Not with the high number density we experienced by intent.

If you´re packed like sardines, NOTHING is going to do it.

And soil mostly acts as an insulator, rock far less so.
The numbers i have is that rock heat transfer is something like 4-40 times higher than that of soil.
And it also stores twice or more heat.
And absolutely NONE of the underground structures here are built in soil rather than rock.

As i mentioned before, it´s a matter of engineering, and of course not having whatever you use to get rid of the surplus heat to be visible.

HB of CJ wrote:Everybody knows about Pole Shift. Well, almost everybody.

No, they know about magnetic pole shift. Because that´s constantly happening to some extent and therefore blatantly obvious.

Physical pole shift, it´s an outlier theory with very limited support.

HB of CJ wrote:Up there with Big Foot and mega tsunamis.

"Mega tsunamis" are perfectly plausible, just not likely.

HB of CJ wrote:You tend to cut and pillage on this excellent forum, particularly about subjects you know little or nothing about. Are you trolling?

I never reply to something if i do NOT know something about it.

If you want to consider your own limitations ignorance on my part, then that´s your problem.

The biggest problem with underground bases is that they don't move. Okay if they are not attacked but if anyone knows where they are or suspects where they are you can bet there are some big nukes reserved for these suspected locations.

Mobile bases that crisscross the Country in the back of parked or in transit Trucks and trains and ships and planes. That is a target you just never know where it is. It can look like a rusting yellow cargo container but it can contain a top secret lab, and the twelve others next to it, some green, a blue one and three red. Parked next to an old service station. It has cameras and still sells gas but no one drives out there.... That is how you hide a base. Yes there is an underground connection tunnel, yes it was disguised as pulling out the old fuel storage tanks and putting in new ones. Albeit of three going in the little one off to the side is the only real one.

How many containers at shipping yards never get moved anywhere? Ever wonder why?

Basically the underground military facilites make sence only if their location could not be determined by the opponent with needed percision, or if they are combined with the effective active defenses.

For example - the "Safeguard" ABM system, that protected the missile silos. She made virtually impossible any disarming strike, because to destroy all silos before they launch, the enemy would be forced to send not 2-3 warheads against each silo, but saturation attack (dozen of warheads) against each silo.

P.S. But the "Poseidon" SLBM worked better)