GOD EXISTS

I believe in freedom of religion, one's beliefs are his own including the freedom not to believe. I consider myself Christin. You know the hypocrites and Pharisees dissed Jesus for spending time in bars and talking to tax collectors, his first wonder was making more wine for a friend's wedding feast. In the past people did very bad things "In the name of Christ," some idiots still do. Christ when asked to boil down the entire will of God from the ten commandments said "To love one another."

Those who do not see it that way are free to do so without condemnation and ridicule from me, although I would ask the same respect for my decision

I would wish that Muslims would denounce Sheria law that goes so far against freedom of religious belief.

Who wants to live under this:



And they forgot the tax on other religions ,Christians and Jews, who are allowed to still practice their religions.

Atheists and Religions other than Christians and Jews (Buddhists, Hindus etc.) are punishable by Death.

Well you get the idea.

Poker

pokermind wrote:I believe in freedom of religion, one's beliefs are his own including the freedom not to believe. I consider myself Christin. You know the hypocrites and Pharisees dissed Jesus for spending time in bars and talking to tax collectors, his first wonder was making more wine for a friend's wedding feast. In the past people did very bad things "In the name of Christ," some idiots still do. Christ when asked to boil down the entire will of God from the ten commandments said "To love one another."

Those who do not see it that way are free to do so without condemnation and ridicule from me, although I would ask the same respect for my decision

I would wish that Muslims would denounce Sheria law that goes so far against freedom of religious belief.

Who wants to live under this:



And they forgot the tax on other religions ,Christians and Jews, who are allowed to still practice their religions.

Atheists and Religions other than Christians and Jews (Buddhists, Hindus etc.) are punishable by Death.

Well you get the idea.

Poker

There is a tale in the USAF, about when we were friendly with Lybia, and we had Wheelus Air Base. One of the Lybian Air Majors claimed to have married a WAF, and she had to accompany him home. Due to her disagreement about this, she was confined to base. Diplomats from the various state departments were involved. Investigation showed that the Major had pointed her out to a Iman or some other holyman, gotten his brother and three friends together, and held the ceremony without the bride being present. Rumor said the US paid off the major by buying him some land next to the Tripoli docks, providing he had the marriage annulled. It is said he and his family were heartbroken at the thought of losing such a woman.

Hutch wrote:Referencing that Dungeons and Dragons Condemning, rock Music Hating, Anti-Roman Catholic purveyor of bad art is not going to convince me anytime soon.

Please forgive my referencing someone that may offend, now and in the future. I am not familiar with him. I am only concerned with his post and the message he is trying to convey. Even if Satan exactly quoted GODs own holy words, it would not change the truth within.

King James Bible
1 Cor 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Sometimes God uses the most unlikely of people to accomplish his mission. This is a common theme throughout the Bible.

Hutch wrote:For those like Cthia and some of the other posters with him, there is NO DOUBT God exists, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and lived on Earth, and that the Bible they read (I notice cthia quotes the KJV) is the absolute, unvarished TRUTH. And to him and the rest those are indisputable facts.

This passage seems to refer and object to the confidence of a Christian in his beliefs.

I do quote from the King James Bible. I like that Bible very much. Someone else in this thread acknowledged the poetic nature of the words contained within — its Shakespearean flair. I wholeheartedly agree, it is becoming. I have always loved reading Shakespeare and wore many a volume out as a kid. Shakespeare was my first favorite author (before Edgar Allen Poe displaced him). As a pre-teen, I often carried around pages of Shakespeare that had fallen out of worn volumes. I'd fall asleep with them on my bed. In lieu of that, would you deny me the KJV? Of course not.

However, I consult many versions of the Bible and compare. One of my favorite Bibles is the Parallel Bible, that features the KJV juxtaposed with a more modern interpretation. Although, I've seen them in various combinations to fit one's fancy. The KJV is my favorite Bible therefore when I quote, I quote from it and I try to be consistent and try to maintain some standard in quoting as well. Also, I am likewise aware, as some have already pointed out, that meaning can be lost in translation. Therefore, the KJV serves to minimize as much of that as I can, being an English speaker.

Yes, I do believe that the KJV is the TRUTH, because it contains GODs spoken words and his teachings. Whether or not it is absolute truth because the hand of man may have tainted it, I cannot say. Nor do I. However, it would be illogical for me to have faith in GOD, faith that he sent his only begotten Son to die for all sins who would receive him, yet not have faith in the core of the only Book that contains him and his teachings - and that I would also not have faith that he has protected the power and essence of his spoken words. Bracketing the fact that it is the oldest book in existence containing his words and teachings.

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Hutch wrote:For folks like me (callus Humanists if you must fit us in a category), we know there is much we don't know, but we know there is much we DO know, and moreover we know how to find out about stuff. So while God (He/She/It/They may exist, we look for evidence to confirm that or possibly cast certain things into doubt (i.e., age of the earth, worldwide flood).

And true believers can't do that. Because they KNOW that the Bible is FACT and NOTHING can disagree with it.

This is not true of all Christians. Many of us are researchers, scientists, physicists, engineers, earnestly looking for evidence. The fact that we're partial to the outcome of said evidence is besides the point. You're supposed to cheer for the home team. To imply that Christians in general would still hold onto our truths in face of incontrovertible evidence to the contrary is erroneous. Presumptuous at best. I have announced throughout my tenure on this forum that I am avidly researching and seeking proof of the existence of GOD. I have mentioned it several posts back, as well. It was not a precipitous decision to be born again.

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Having said that, there does exist a certain portion of the population, I prefer to call them scientists, who believe that the acceptance of GOD and associated belief, will dispel their beloved science. On the opposite end of the spectrum there are closed minded Christians, who fear that science will disprove their beloved GOD.

Then there are people like myself, a scientist at heart and a Christian as well who fear not either. We realize that science will never disprove the existence of GOD. On the contrary, science, at every turn, has supported the notion of GOD. And hints of the validity of GOD is at every turn of the discoveries of science.

Mankind had to discover fire before he had a hand on light, carrying it around on the end of sticks. His knowledge of light grew. He has theories concerning this light. E=MC2. Attaining the speed of light still eludes man, and our equations tell us it's impossible. Impossible to achieve the speed of light. Godspeed? But these are only theories and full realization of the power of light still eludes man.

Yet God created Heaven(one) Earth(two) and light(three).

Genesis 1:3King James Version (KJV)
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

The scientist in me pays close attention to detail. The third thing God created is light. And Jesus is the light of the world.

John 8:12King James Version (KJV)
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Then there is the Holy Trinity. That number 3 again. Which are ...

FATHER<—>SON<—>HOLY SPIRIT<—>

The triangle. We all know the value of the triangle in our life. Every structure consists of triangles. It is the most stable structure. Coincidence? Perhaps.

Are there other interesting concepts of science that may be clues to something more profound? I think so.

It is not possible for any man to be in two places at the same time. Yet God says he can. He promises us ...

KJV
Matthew 18:20
20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

God didn't say that any group of two or more gathered in his name had to wait their turn. So how else can God accomplish this task unless he can be in two or more places at once?

God was also on his throne in Heaven and also here on Earth.

Is this possible? Does laboratory findings support this?

Quantum Mechanics
Where every bit of matter and energy exists in a state of blurry flux, allowing it to occupy not just two locations but an infinite number of them simultaneously.

We're getting collective "oohs" and "ahhs" from the jury.


Yet the circumstantial evidence gets even better.

Matthew 17:20King James Version (KJV)
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

A mustard seed is quite small.

That reminds me of an equation that will take, as an input, a very small quantity (mass) and yield an incredible amount of energy. (E)
E=MC2

Another coincidence? For Heaven's sake! Oh we of little faith. Open your eyes and you shall see what is right in front of you.

Matthew 13:15-17: For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them. But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

It's at least enough evidence to go to trial.

So you see Hutch, we Christians have it within us to search for evidence too. Perhaps we see more, because our eyes are open with the spirit of discernment.

If man is responsible for the words within the Bible, then he has a precognitive imagination. Miraculous even.

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Beware of hypocrisy. Some non-believers browbeat Christians who they think are trying to convert them into believing what they believe. They accuse us of being much too aggressive (and I agree that some are.)

It is interesting, however, that many of these same Christian detractors are just as aggressive in trying to get those, who claim to believe, into not believing, as they do. Or discouraging. The pot calls the kettle black.

A true Christian respects the rights of both the Atheist and the Christian. The true Atheist respects neither. Not himself, nor the Christian, for he would not feel offense to true Christianity and one who tries to act in accordance to his own beliefs.

What inherent evil have I by claiming that GOD EXISTS? What inherent evil have I by opening up a dialogue to discuss my beliefs to any who may wish to respectfully participate? True Christians are the ones responsible for the acknowledgment of rights of all to worship as they please. I personally do not think that particular privilege, right, would survive without true Christians.

If an Atheist began a likewise thread, handled with decency, I for one would NOT object. And I would participate, without condemnation or affront. I would view it as a learning process. I am not the type Christian who believes he knows all things. I have learned even from this thread things that require my further research.

It is interesting. When I contemplated the title of this thread, I also considered GOD EXISTS? Making it a question. I only considered making it a question because I felt it might possibly be more user-friendly, gentle or — and may God forgive me — less offensive. But there would be those that would still take issue because of the subject matter alone. Besides, I would have begun this thread with my own personal lie. Of all threads, I really must remain true to myself within this one. Not to mention the fact that for a Christian to question the existence of his own GOD borders blasphemy. Would you not even allow me that? Even if you do not allow me to worship or attempt to share what I deem is good.

cthia,

I believe that existence has purpose and so the truth of that purpose is for each sentient individual to discover. I believe this because likelihood that pure chance can result in the miracle that is life is just ridiculous. Life forming due to chance is so low probability that it requires faith to believe. Certainly there is no proof. The Earth forming as it did, colliding with what would become the Moon and losing much of its then thick atmosphere is just one of the very low probability outcomes that happened in our creation.

You are absolutely right in what you say. However, the proof of his existence does not lie in the Bible. It lies in the scientific explanations of how we came to be here. God's Word is Creation's Purpose. Science proves that such order as we live in simply cannot come through pure chance. It must be Created.

PeterZ wrote:
cthia,

I believe that existence has purpose and so the truth of that purpose is for each sentient individual to discover. I believe this because likelihood that pure chance can result in the miracle that is life is just ridiculous. Life forming due to chance is so low probability that it requires faith to believe. Certainly there is no proof. The Earth forming as it did, colliding with what would become the Moon and losing much of its then thick atmosphere is just one of the very low probability outcomes that happened in our creation.

You are absolutely right in what you say. However, the proof of his existence does not lie in the Bible. It lies in the scientific explanations of how we came to be here. God's Word is Creation's Purpose. Science proves that such order as we live in simply cannot come through pure chance. It must be Created.

Please forgive the bold.

God's word is Creation's Purpose.

Science proves that such order as we live in simply cannot come through pure chance.

One of Albert Einstein's most famous statements is “God does not play dice with the universe”.

It must be Created.

I intensely agree.

I just happen to believe that God is the Creator.

Thanks for your post Peter.

Cthia, did we disagree? I don't recall writing anything arguing God's existence.

PeterZ wrote:Cthia, did we disagree? I don't recall writing anything arguing God's existence.

Oh no Peter. On the contrary, your post is rather refreshing.

Well here we go again. I asked, again, for evidence, and got, again, only tedious repetition of the same tired old arguments that have already failed to convince anybody.

Quotes from Bronze Age fairy tales can ONLY convince those who already believe them.

As far as the rest of us are concerned, you might as well quote from The War Of The Worlds. Are some people really incapable of understanding that we do not believe those stories are true? That we require real, verifiable physical evidence before we accept that arguments based on those stories have any validity whatsoever?

Nor does it profit you to continue belaboring the low probability of the chain of events that led to life on this planet.

I think I see your problem on that one. You are still unconsciously proceeding from a feeling that the Earth is the center of the universe. It is not.

The probability of the sequence of events that led to life occurring in any particular place is very low, but after billions of years in hundreds of billions of galaxies containing quintillions of stars, the probability of it happening SOMEwhere by sheer random chance is damn near unity, and we are here because this is where it happened. Indeed, it has probably happened many, many times in other places too. They may be so far away that it would take millions or billions of years to reach them, but the odds are pretty good that they’re out there.

When my company sells an underwater light, we do not demand that the customer “have faith” that it produces 11,000 lumens with a specific spectral content and will withstand 12,000 PSI of water pressure; we provide authenticated test data to prove it. Where is your test data?

How much of the bible is God's word, writings thought to be God's word, writings inspired by God, writings thought to be inspired by God, or writings the trickster suckered people into collecting and calling it Holy Scripture?
No one knows. That's why there are so many interpretations.

Imaginos1892 wrote:
Well here we go again. I asked, again, for evidence, and got, again, only tedious repetition of the same tired old arguments that have already failed to convince anybody.

Quotes from Bronze Age fairy tales can ONLY convince those who already believe them.

As far as the rest of us are concerned, you might as well quote from The War Of The Worlds. Are some people really incapable of understanding that we do not believe those stories are true? That we require real, verifiable physical evidence before we accept that arguments based on those stories have any validity whatsoever?

Nor does it profit you to continue belaboring the low probability of the chain of events that led to life on this planet.

I think I see your problem on that one. You are still unconsciously proceeding from a feeling that the Earth is the center of the universe. It is not.

The probability of the sequence of events that led to life occurring in any particular place is very low, but after billions of years in hundreds of billions of galaxies containing quintillions of stars, the probability of it happening SOMEwhere by sheer random chance is damn near unity, and we are here because this is where it happened. Indeed, it has probably happened many, many times in other places too. They may be so far away that it would take millions or billions of years to reach them, but the odds are pretty good that they’re out there.

When my company sells an underwater light, we do not demand that the customer “have faith” that it produces 11,000 lumens with a specific spectral content and will withstand 12,000 PSI of water pressure; we provide authenticated test data to prove it. Where is your test data?

Patience.

I am quite busy with my career and life. I will address your post.

Let me quickly dispel one of your myths, and any others suffering the same misnomer. A true Christian's aim IS NOT to convert you. GODs word is intended to do that. Or not. A Christian's obligation to his God is to spread the knowledge of God's existence. Once you have heard and do not hear that is your decision. God gives freedom of choice.

Christians believe that God will return when all have heard of his name and have had a chance to follow. It is part of what fuels the Gideon Bible group - to spread the word to all.