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Linux vs Winblows

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Re: Linux vs Winblows
Post by Lord Skimper   » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:00 pm

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Why even go to Linux, people now are updating how they are doing business. Lots are switching over to tablets and smart phones. Apple will setup their iPads for business use locking them to your corporate needs.

http://www.apple.com/ipad/business/

Apps make software a thing of the past.

Servers will still for a while be Microsoft or Linux / Unix based. Wireless access can replace everything. Getting the business to lose the desk can be harder but it is slowly happening.

Getting the cubical replaced with the Lazboy showroom floor that is more difficult.
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Re: Linux vs Winblows
Post by pushmar   » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:49 pm

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Linux is fine, but I'm a FreeBSD man.
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Re: Linux vs Winblows
Post by Daryl   » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:22 am

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I am genuinely interested in understanding your position on this, as I can't follow your reasoning.

Firstly the comment about "apps make software a thing of the past". I'm of the understanding that any code that operates the computer hardware is software, so apps are software anyway.
However having a tablet, a laptop with Win 7, and a desktop that had Win 8 but is now back to win 7, my experience has been that apps are ok for light lifting like Skype, playing music or videos or the multitude of Gen Y frivolities (finding a take away joint near you etc); but for real computing you need grown up software suites that come in 100s of MB packages. I use my tablet when traveling but when doing CAD, managing massive documents, compiling many GB of emails, photoshopping my 50k plus images, correlating business mail/contacts/calendars, converting video formats and such it doesn't start to look at handling it, and the apps that came with Win 8 weren't any better.

I might be igniting the Apple/Android wars again but I'd never use Apple because I loathe the company's business ethics plus why buy something that will only work with its own corporate software? Would I buy a Toyota car if they said only Toyota service stations sold fuel it would run on?
Most serious businesses won't switch totally to wireless because of security and bandwidth issues, and huge spreadsheets need huge monitors.

Even if your particular business can switch to all wireless mobile devices, you still need servers for them to connect to so as to access the internet and large databases. What app will you use to run the servers?

Lord Skimper wrote:Why even go to Linux, people now are updating how they are doing business. Lots are switching over to tablets and smart phones. Apple will setup their iPads for business use locking them to your corporate needs.
http://www.apple.com/ipad/business/

Apps make software a thing of the past.

Servers will still for a while be Microsoft or Linux / Unix based. Wireless access can replace everything. Getting the business to lose the desk can be harder but it is slowly happening.

Getting the cubical replaced with the Lazboy showroom floor that is more difficult.
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Re: Linux vs Winblows
Post by Michael Everett   » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:43 am

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Not getting involved with the actual argument, but my stance on things like this is simple.
I listen to the logical arguments but automatically side against the first person to use insults or overly-derogatory comments.
The reason, to resort to such things generally indicates you are probably working from a weak position or have problems formulating a logical argument.
Sorry cthia, I was opposed to you from your first post.
Too much emotion.
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Re: Linux vs Winblows
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:40 am

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pushmar wrote:Linux is fine, but I'm a FreeBSD man.


I am assuming that you are aware that Linux and Unix are virtually the same, with cosmetic differences only?
And that BSD is Unix/Linux?

And it very well may be the best Unix/Linux for many reasons that we won't get into here.

I am going to assume that you are arguing within the paradigm of Linux. The arguments that I field from many of my friends as to which version of Linux/Unix is the best.

Many of my friends are gurus out in Silicon Valley, where I also once was.

I love BSD, I actually, as a pet project, used OpenBSD to build the smallest OS that I could.

Damn Small Linux (DSL) has a 50 MB Linux. Using OpenBSD I have built a Linux version that is 29.82 MB in size. You wouldn't believe the speed of such a small OS on even the oldest of hardware!

I am trying to get it down to under 25MB. And I have ideas!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Linux vs Winblows
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:09 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:Not getting involved with the actual argument, but my stance on things like this is simple.
I listen to the logical arguments but automatically side against the first person to use insults or overly-derogatory comments.
The reason, to resort to such things generally indicates you are probably working from a weak position or have problems formulating a logical argument.
Sorry cthia, I was opposed to you from your first post.
Too much emotion.


No need to apologize Michael. Many Unix/Linux entusiasts tend to get over emotional regarding our love for our OS. I know that I do. My friends are even worse!

I began this post because of the horrible experience I read in smr's post Ranting about Microsoft and Tech Support In India.

Poor guy. I simply thought to myself that there are alternatives.

And because of the many more horrible stories and experiences.

I want to apologize to any and all that I may have offended with my...overzealous passion for the OS that I love.

Part of it is because I grow weary of repairing Windows computers. If you are the resident computer geek in your social circles you are going to be called on alot.

I am called on alot.

Windows is just not a robust enough OS.

It is too virus, cookie, and popup ridden.
I shouldn't have to steer away from certain sites because they are known breeders for miscreant code.

Some sites I need to go on anyways and sometimes other people, friends, family, etc. may use my computer.

I just grow tired of repairing Windows comps.

I posted earlier about donating 15 comps. to a local school, 12 Windows and 3 Linux for 12 pre-teens to use. They ended up competing for time on the three Linux computers. The teachers called me back and when I asked the students about it, they were like "we don't want those silly windows computers. We can do all of this other stuff with the other 3."
Go figure.

Or the friends whom asked me to help with their new Windows 8 computers. I took their old laptops and replaced the Windows 7 with updated Ubuntu Linux versions for their two young daughters. Visiting later I found out that they had virtually taken over the kids Linux comps!

This is more personal. My Auntie rang me up. Seems she had had enough with her new computer. Now my Auntie only uses her computer to keep track of her more than three thousand rare books, her endless recipe collection, my Uncles butterfly collection, her collection of era music purchased from i-Tunes, and for simple web research and word-processing.

For years my Aunt has been using Windows and less than nine months ago purchased a new Laptop to manage all these things.

After using for a few months the computer began to bog down. So many cookies and a few viruses. And she spent extra for virus software!

The popups were getting on her nerves. She go to click on something and it begins an avalanche of windows opening! And boot times were too slow. And the screen became so cluttered!

She did not want me to take her computer away for a few days as I was swamped with work. We struck a mid-ground. I took an old 486 I had given her daughter many years ago running Windows XP.

I temporarily set-up the latest Ubuntu with a free compatible database program, word-processor, and music programs.

I returned to bring my Aunts serviced Windows 8 computer and she gave me a seriously incredible look of defiance and a stern lecture.

"Finally I got a computer that I like. It works. It works well! And if you think I'm going to give it back for that that junk you've got another think coming! Even your Uncle uses the computer now!

My Uncle has never liked computers! He was clicking that mouse like a pianist!

My Aunt kept commenting about how fast things happen when you click the mouse. And my favorite, "the screen is so pretty. It's not messy." She is alluding to the lack of popups, the clear borders of one screen open, that utilises the entire screen by default. And it's intuitive.

If an OS can win over my Uncle. My Uncle. It be bad!

"This is how a computer should work!"
"Son, why haven't you given us this from the start?!"

My Aunt was bordering on the irate. She refused to accept her new computer back. A nearly three-thousand dollar system! She would rather have an old desktop case unit!

"But Auntie, I can just load Ubuntu Linux on your new computer.."

"Don't bother, thank you!"

*
Last edited by cthia on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Linux vs Winblows
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:21 pm

cthia
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Imaginos1892 wrote:
Uroboros wrote:Why don't I use Linux?

I can't be bothered. I'm bothered enough trying to figure out where everything is on Windows. I just don't care enough to switch, despite potentially being a better program. It's just not better enough for me to care, and I got it free with the computer.

So why change?

Your problems stem from the fact that win-blows goes to great lengths to hide things from you and make it hard to figure out where the Hell it put them. I deal with this every day at work. Then I go home, fire up Linux, and read the Weber Forums.

Linux, like Unix, puts all your user data in your home directory unless you specifically tell it to put it somewhere else. If you need to back it up, or copy it to another computer, it's all in one place and YOU KNOW WHERE. Win-blows stashes stuff in about a dozen different places, some of which are hard for you to access even after you find them. It does this in order to control you, and force you to use THEIR TOOLS to find where it put YOUR DATA. Every version of Unix and Linux I have ever used has put my data in the same place.

Yes, despite being the most wretchedly abominable excuse for an OS any computer user has ever had to suffer with, win-blows is, unfortunately, everywhere. This is because back in 1982 Billzebub sold IBM an OS that did not exist, used the money to take control of a small software company that had illegally hacked a copy of CP/M-86 for use as an engineering tool, and delivered that abortion to IBM as PC-DOS 1.0. IBM then imposed it on the world.

Most companies spend considerable time and money improving their products so people will want to buy them. MicroShaft takes it for granted that nobody would ever WANT to buy their shitty products, and puts all that effort into preventing people from not buying them. They deliberately make every version of their crap incompatible with every other version, forcing you to "upgrade" in order to continue accessing YOUR OWN DATA. Buying a new computer? None of your old MicroShaft software will run on the new version of win-blows, and your data is locked up in their proprietary formats that can only be used by their programs. You're on the Upgrade Treadmill From Hell.

Donna, you mentioned Sun computers. Do you know what OS they run? It's called Solaris, and it's derived from Unix System V Release 4. So, in an attempt to prove cthia wrong, you have done the opposite.
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Gentlemen! You can't fight in here - this is the War Room!


To Imaginos1982

Your history lesson of IBM, PC-DOS and CPM/86 was too damn refreshing for me. I enjoyed that thoroughly too well, and thought about including it myself but didn't see the point, there was, and is, so much ground to cover, and some minds are simply not receptive.

Again it is good to meet a mind still not tainted.
Pleased to meet you!


I've been away from this thread. I was on vacation and I am back on the grindstone.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Linux vs Winblows
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:24 pm

cthia
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Uroboros wrote:
Imaginos1892 wrote:(Long post I'm replying to.)


Oh, where to start on this.

First, The burden of proof is on you to make your point. You have failed utterly to make a point, instead relying on name-calling and poor argument. Weather or not Windows is bad is not the issue. The issue is weather Linux is better, and why should anyone change. Instead of addressing this in a logical, mature manner, you have just resorted to name-calling and blaming your competitor product, the lowest and easiest form of argumentation.

Instead of addressing the possible reasons why a person might wish to switch, you immedately begin with name-calling, within the first sentence. This completely and immediately undermines your credibility with the audience. Instead of making a logical, and reasoned argument why Linux is better over Windows, and possibly very good reasons to switch, you launch into a tirade about how bad Windows is.

Why should a consumer, any consumer, who has comfortably used Windows for years, suddenly decide to switch? Where is the reasoned arguments? Where is the proof? Where is the sources? Side-by-side comparisons? Demos? Anything? Did you provide anything like this? No? Just calling it Winblows is good enough to get your point across, I guess.

Second, by insulting the product a person is using, you are insulting the person using it by proxy. You are questioning their fundamental intelligence by using said product. It makes a person completely want to ignore everything that just came out of your lips. Instead of getting the audience on your side, you've just alienated it. All they hear is "You're stupid, you're an idiot, I'm an asshole, pffffffft pffft ffffffppp."

If you wish to illustrate cogently and maturely why you think Windows is an inferior product and why I might be better served with a substitute, please, go on and try again. Use some examples, some actual facts and documented sources that I can peruse. If all you can manage is rhetoric and name-calling, just don't bother. I'll only hear you pucker up again and fart out some more nonsense.

Because, frankly, you've already pissed me off, your potential convert. I put that up as a challenge to convince me, and you have most definitely have not.


I'd like to apologize to Uroboros. We Linux enthusiasts sometimes get besides ourselves with our passion. At least I know I do.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Linux vs Winblows
Post by Imaginos1892   » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:58 pm

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cthia wrote:I'd like to apologize to Uroboros. We Linux enthusiasts sometimes get besides ourselves with our passion. At least I know I do.

Yes, but it's more than that. I am an electronics engineer, and a programmer, and my professional sensibilities are deeply offended by how !$#*@("@#% BAD MS-win-blows is. I was programming computers before there was MS-DOG. I was there when they rolled it out. I tested it, and found it to be a fewking awful wretched steaming pile of crap. I found out its origins. Know what Seattle Microcomputer called it? QD-DOS -- for Quick-N-Dirty. They hacked it up as a lab tool for internal use only. They certainly never intended it to be sold to IBM!

There were better OS's back in 1982. There was CP/M-86 (the real thing, not a hacked-up mess), and Gem, and OS-9. People were developing great stuff, with tremendous promise. Then IBM dumped out this festering turd. Unfortunately for us all, the bean counters that actually made buying decisions were clueless about computers; they thought they were buying some sort of improved adding machine, and IBM was the king of adding machines. These things must be Really Great. By hitching a ride on the 800 pound gorilla, MS crushed out most of the competition and stifled independent development for years.

I was there when MS stole Stacker, and got away with it. Apple licensed some GUI code to them for the sole purpose of developing MS-OFFICE for the Mac, and they hacked it up into MS-win-blows. I watched them destroy Wordperfect by giving them "advance documentation" for the interface specs for MS-win-blows 95 -- and then releasing it with a completely different interface. I saw them kill Netscape by deliberately making MS-win-blows cause it to crash. They tried to take over the Internet by corrupting the HTML standard and blaming the resulting incompatibilities on everybody else. They tried to co-opt Java by making their own incompatible version of it until Sun sued them and won, and they had to change the name to .NET and C-hash.

Where did Google get their motto? "Don't be evil". From watching the evil up north, that's where.

I have earned my contempt for Gates, and MS, and all its products. I will continue to beg people to use something - anything! - else. And I will advocate for Linux because it is so much better, and truly free - everybody is free to use it for any purpose without paying vigorish to anybody. If you have an old computer that has gotten so constipated with MS-win-blows that it barely runs, you can install Linux for little effort and no money, and try it out.
You can't do that with anything else.
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Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!
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Re: Linux vs Winblows
Post by pushmar   » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:53 am

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Location: <Moscow, Idaho> Nope, back in Michigan.

Damn Small Linux (DSL) has a 50 MB Linux. Using OpenBSD I have built a Linux version that is 29.82 MB in size. You wouldn't believe the speed of such a small OS on even the oldest of hardware!

I am trying to get it down to under 25MB. And I have ideas!


I understand tomsrtbt http://www.toms.net/rb/ can fit on a floppy disk, if anyone uses those anymore. (Had to format it as 1.722 MB floppy, always did that just fine)

I used to use it occasionally to fix boot sectors, and other quick little tasks.

Yeah, you can prune BSD (and Linux) down to something abominably small. Something you can put on an old thumb drive, boot up, and run in a RAM disk.
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