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Under ground military bases

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Re: Under ground military bases
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Sat May 21, 2016 1:38 pm

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Daryl wrote:To me the whole concept of deep underground military bases for long term VIP storage is not all that sensible.

I strongly agree... that does not say that the "powers that be" don't have differing opinions of their own value and that they would not be trying to divert funding for their own good.

Many years ago I read some musings from Robert Heinlein (all hail) where he described his experiences flying in light aircraft at reasonably low altitude. As he said there was a lot of nothing between places, and I've done the same often since.
Barring extreme nuclear winter or so much radiation that it sterilises the planet I would much rather be in a well stocked and defended small remote surface site than be a rat in a hole with one entrance (that took so much to construct that anyone with satellites would know about anyway).
Even the biggest nukes only have a blast radius of some dozen miles or so, and will be targeted at high value sites. This leaves a lot of untouched wilderness even if all are used.
My 8 acre site is well defended and stocked, however too close to a 100k city if all goes totally to pot. So me, family, the well stocked and defended stuff will decamp to my sister's station (ranch), which is remote and easily missed. It is at **********, damn my keyboard is playing up.

Likely, your plan has a higher degree of success than any underground cities or bases but, you still have to get from point A to point B... I read a book called One Second After by William R. Forstchen, which I believe to have a frightening and realistic basis and which, if true would pretty much close the door on your escape route. This would also be the unexpected consequence for many of the political and military leaders unless they were at, or very near the base when it dropped in the crapper.

Underground military bases are needed to continue fighting a war, not so good for long term survival.
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Under ground military bases
Post by The E   » Mon May 23, 2016 5:19 am

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Tenshinai wrote:
POLE SHIFT!!! Physical flipping of the Earth in space. NOT MAGNETIC SHIFT!! Entirely different thing. Sorry.


I don´t think i´ve ever heard anyone claim THAT.


I kinda have.

TL;DR: Earth's rotational axis wobbles a bit (on the order of a dozen meters or so). Reason is that Earth's mass is (shock and surprise here) not evenly distributed. Recently, this wobble has taken the rotational axis in an unprecedented direction; observational data shows that there is a correlation between droughts on land and the direction the wobble is taking. It all looks like solid Science to me (I am obviously not an expert in the field, so grains of salt should be held ready).
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Re: Under ground military bases
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Mon May 23, 2016 9:33 am

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The E wrote:
Tenshinai wrote:POLE SHIFT!!! Physical flipping of the Earth in space. NOT MAGNETIC SHIFT!! Entirely different thing. Sorry.

I don´t think i´ve ever heard anyone claim THAT.


I kinda have.

TL;DR: Earth's rotational axis wobbles a bit (on the order of a dozen meters or so). Reason is that Earth's mass is (shock and surprise here) not evenly distributed. Recently, this wobble has taken the rotational axis in an unprecedented direction; observational data shows that there is a correlation between droughts on land and the direction the wobble is taking. It all looks like solid Science to me (I am obviously not an expert in the field, so grains of salt should be held ready).


I have a theory that the reason the mass shifts is from tourists taking small rocks from beaches or mountain overlooks to their home gardens as souvenirs ;)
One of these days, some grandmother will move that critical mass and the earth will wobble... :lol:

But... hey, I have been wrong before
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Under ground military bases
Post by Tenshinai   » Tue May 24, 2016 9:30 am

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The E wrote:
I kinda have.

TL;DR: Earth's rotational axis wobbles a bit (on the order of a dozen meters or so). Reason is that Earth's mass is (shock and surprise here) not evenly distributed. Recently, this wobble has taken the rotational axis in an unprecedented direction; observational data shows that there is a correlation between droughts on land and the direction the wobble is taking. It all looks like solid Science to me (I am obviously not an expert in the field, so grains of salt should be held ready).


Well sure that´s for real, but it´s also nothing even remotely close to have the earth physically shift 180 degrees.


"Earth’s spin axis drifts slowly around the poles; the farthest away it has wobbled since observations began is 37 feet (12 metres)."

That´s nothing. Meanwhile the magnetic poles have moved miles in triple digit ranges during the same period.

Take even just a couple of minutes to read through even that limited article and you KNOW it´s not talking about earth flipping.
Seriously, how anyone can get that idea from this is just astounding.
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Re: Under ground military bases
Post by The E   » Tue May 24, 2016 10:52 am

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Which is why I said "kinda". But I wouldn't put it past the usual reality-denier crowd to misinterpret those findings that way.
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Re: Under ground military bases
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Tue May 24, 2016 11:39 am

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I am getting the impression that most contributors here think it would be a very big waste of resources to try to build super bunkers... if there was a war large enough to make the Military Masterminds want to be in it to further prosecute the effort, they would have a problem keeping food and other supplies and what is the advantage of being the king of nothing.

If the 1% try to hide till the effects of the worse case are past, the same thing...

Reading the "Shadows of Freedom" today and came across a passage about the people in power thinking only about the stick and not at all about the carrot... that it is not the security goons but the working class that provide the wealth the 1% enjoy...

Put me in mind of a passage in Luke 14:32 (CEB) And if he didn't think he could win, he would send a representative to discuss terms of peace while his enemy was still a long way off.

It is less expensive, more profitable to find the way to make peace... especially if the thing you think you have to fight over is only material which would be destroyed or taken from you if you lose.
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Under ground military bases
Post by niethil   » Thu May 26, 2016 6:58 am

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If you are interested not just in the engineering part but also in the sociological part of shelters, you might want to take a look at some of the reports of the Mass Observation. I have never been able to go through the whole thing - only read a small part because it was quoted in something else, the whole bundle would take too long - but there must be some historians that did.
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Difficulty Of Remaining Underground ...
Post by HB of CJ   » Thu May 26, 2016 10:12 am

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A long time ago six (6) of us stupid volunteers, me included since I was a Registered Nurse Paramedic, spent a very non pleasant three, (3) days 8 feet underground in a seven foot by 20 foot very small round blast and fallout shelter. Oregon Institute Of Science And Medicine.

Manual crank type ventilation fan. Squirrel cage type. Thick HEPA filters. We did not have enough cooling air. Breathing air OK. The beginning temperature inside was about 58F. After 72 hours it was 88F. One hundred percent humidity. Not enough cooling ventilation.

I was giving out heavy tranks towards the end. We wanted to kill each other. We made it but barely. Clothed at the beginning. Naked at the end. Coed. Our bodies were the least of our concerns. My failed feeble point here is that until you have done it ... do not comment.

Cooling and ventilating big deep government civilian or military redoubts is not easy. Particularly when they are empty all the time then suddenly very full. Thus the rivers near by. The human body puts out lots of heat. Multiple redundant NBC filtration systems are very necessary.

Yes our government here in the USA has multiple redundant deep military and civilian redoubts or deep bunkers. They take their own importance very seriously. There are deep redoubts in SW OR USA. Their location is classified. Most nations has such. Such is the human condition.

As far as the mega super deep maximum disaster civilization ending military and civilian bunkers existing is anybodies guess. Cheyenne Mountain in SE CO USA still works. One mile in, one mile down. Solid granite. Do others exist? Anybody got any inside info? Fracking misinformation?

Go to the various NON CENSORED earthquake sites and see where all the little earthquakes are happening in places where they should not be. The excuses given are fracking for natural gas. Only problem is there is no gas there. Digging more deep reboubts? Dunno. You decide. Fun.
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Re: Under ground military bases
Post by Louis R   » Thu May 26, 2016 2:43 pm

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this is a Velikovskyite thing, which is probably why you've never run into it [they're fairly thin on the ground these days]. Actually, I've encountered a couple of versions of it, but have no idea just how distinct they are.

One is the straight-up Velikovsky version: when that comet that was about to become Venus sideswiped the Earth and made the Sun stand still, it applied enough torque to twist the axis of rotation through some number of degrees - don't ask how many, I've never bothered to remember - and permanently change the position of the poles on the sky. It also, of course, made everything not rigidly attached to the Earth slosh around trying to catch up, thus explaining any number of supposedly contemporary catastrophes. This actually has some physical plausibility, assuming you didn't switch off at 'comet', but you'd need to burn up some serious computer time to figure out what plausible magnitudes are and what effect such an event would have on the real, rock-water-and-metal earth would be. IIRC, there's a variant of this in which only the crust was... reoriented, if you'll allow me the pun.

There's a second set of, umm, hypotheses, based on the notion that the Earth is actually not all that tightly wrapped [rather like the passengers, actually]. When the wobble from uneven mass distribution gets large enough the crust actually slips over the interior until everything is back in dynamic equilibrium. Also leading to stuff sloshing around and causing assorted catastrophes.

I'm not all sure what, if anything, the relationship is between these two notions, but I don't think either of them claims shifts in the locations of the poles of more than 30-40 degrees. Not in a single incident, at any rate.


Tenshinai wrote:
The E wrote:
I kinda have.

TL;DR: Earth's rotational axis wobbles a bit (on the order of a dozen meters or so). Reason is that Earth's mass is (shock and surprise here) not evenly distributed. Recently, this wobble has taken the rotational axis in an unprecedented direction; observational data shows that there is a correlation between droughts on land and the direction the wobble is taking. It all looks like solid Science to me (I am obviously not an expert in the field, so grains of salt should be held ready).


Well sure that´s for real, but it´s also nothing even remotely close to have the earth physically shift 180 degrees.


"Earth’s spin axis drifts slowly around the poles; the farthest away it has wobbled since observations began is 37 feet (12 metres)."

That´s nothing. Meanwhile the magnetic poles have moved miles in triple digit ranges during the same period.

Take even just a couple of minutes to read through even that limited article and you KNOW it´s not talking about earth flipping.
Seriously, how anyone can get that idea from this is just astounding.
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Re: Under ground military bases
Post by Tenshinai   » Thu May 26, 2016 9:43 pm

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C. O. Thompson wrote:It is less expensive, more profitable to find the way to make peace... especially if the thing you think you have to fight over is only material which would be destroyed or taken from you if you lose.
Just my 2 ₡ worth


Yeah, but that would be the sane, logical and sensible way to do it. Too often, that gets run over by powerplays, nationalism, pride etc etc...

C. O. Thompson wrote:I am getting the impression that most contributors here think it would be a very big waste of resources to try to build super bunkers...


Mostly yes. OTOH, if you look at Sweden, we had enough underground bases(mostly not huge, but spread out in large numbers) in 1980 to essentially put the whole population in cover, with strategic reserves of base foodstuff kept large enough that even with 100% survival and 0% ability to aquire new food, the whole population could still survive for a year.

With mobilisation, more than 1 in 10 would be part of the defense(almost a million) or civil defense(a couple hundred thousand at most), with a population that can get underground in less than 10 minutes almost regardless where they are, while all industries vital for a war effort had underground facilities...
And of course, the psychological security this adds was an obvious part of it.

The total was intentionally made to be an extremely tough nut to crack, regardless through conquest or attacks on the population.

Basically, SUPER-bunkers are not so useful, especially because they´re almost impossible to keep unknown, but making sure everything you might need in an emergency is as protected and hidden as you can make it, of course it´s useful.

And as it´s cheaper to build fewer large bases, well of course you´re likely to build as big as you can justify.
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