Should Caster Semenya be allowed to compete?

Daryl wrote:As I said previously, no y chromosome, and no artifical drugs. Anything else is subjective. Too high a natural level of testesterone is how much? Anyway hard core feminists refer to males as testesterone poisoned humans.

Female sentiment is even worse than that Daryl. They lay out the effects of the poison. I wouldn't particularly call my sisters feminists, but here is a conversation I overheard once. "Girl talk."

"Testosterone increases the male "physical" as well as "emotional" prowess. Men are not generally known to be emotional type creatures. Suddenly, here is a condition that makes a man "a whole lot more of a man" - along with "a whole lot more of a woman."

Is it a SECRET - Strong enough for a man. But made for a woman? giggles

IOW, here's a great big hawking stud of a man with big bulging manly muscles who's really a sensitive woman on the inside trying to get out. That's why they get so violent. Men can't handle emotions. They short circuit."

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:Now granted, Caster didn't get her elevated testosterone levels from a misguided — coach or sports program. No, she got them naturally from someone else - God.

MaxxQ wrote:No, she got it naturally from two people - her parents. Now that I see this, I can see that I'm not going to get anywhere convincing you otherwise.

Her parents aren't allowed to slip her an illegal mickey either.

No, you are not going to be able to change my mind. Because I know where this will all lead.

I don't want men running in the female events.

My bold.

So there we have the cause of your objection, namely that Semenya does not fit your definition of womanhood. She appears manly, with bulging muscles, an angular facial bone structure, smallish breasts and a deep voice. Which, taken all together, means that she must be a man.

Hmmm.

Look, what I am saying is that our understanding of biological sex has become far more nuanced and sophisticated over the last few decades than the simple, straightforward binary of male/female that was prevalent at the time of the Olympic Games' inception.

Moreover, I think it is really unfair and unrealistic to hold onto a standard of womanhood that favours Western, Eurocentric and white ideas surrounding femininity and female appearance. That might have been understandable a century ago when the world was essentially a Euro-American playpen, but since then the world has become much larger with a much more diverse field of actors.

What is needed to resolve instances such as Semenya's case is not to exclude but to come up with new models and solutions that will be fair yet inclusive, that will accommodate these new understandings and realities.

cthia wrote:...
Countries like Russia have already shown that there is no limit to the length that they will go to win gold medals.
...

Oh my what selfrighteousness... I wonder where you found that out by the way?

Considering that the Russian anti-doping organisation is actually more reliable and strict than the one in USA, my my, how dreadful...

Did you know that it´s very rare for US race horses to compete outside of USA. Did you know that it´s because there´s far too much "anything goes" in USA? Kinda same as in human sports, how surprising.

Russia has that MAlign mentality. The super soldier concept was always led by the East. So, if you give them an inch, they'll take a kilometer. And if she is allowed to compete, will expose the Games to an assault, at the very least, by the Russians.

Riiight... You DO know that USA has actually tried the "chemically enhanced super soldier" thing do you? Emboldened by German success with it during WWII(and ran off with the German researchers postwar). The disgusting CIA trials with brainwashing people using LSD(and electric shocks along with various other unspecified drugs) was a sideline from that experiment.
Russia has not attempted that.


The current campaign against Russia in regards to doping is 99% hot air and politics.
If the same standards were applied to everyone, USA might not have been in the olympics at all, and most nations would have had at least someone locked out, because the reasoning they used against Russia was just embarassingly bad, they locked out competitors who are actually well known to NEVER even have been suspected of ANY kind of doping, because of extremely faint suspicions against a few others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yelena_Isinbayeva
is a Russian former pole vaulter. She is a two-time Olympic gold medalist (2004 and 2008), a three-time World Champion (2005, 2007 and 2013), the current world record holder in the event, who is widely considered the greatest female pole-vaulter of all time.[1][2] Isinbayeva, who has never failed a drug test, was banned from 2016 Rio Olympics, after allegations of an extensive state sponsored doping program in the Russian Federation, thus dashing her hopes of a grand retirement winning the Olympic gold medal. She retired from athletics in August 2016

Pole vaulting, a SKILLbased sport, where doping is pretty much useless. She´s good because she has superior technique, some claim that she has the best technique of ALL polevaulters seen so far, male or female.

The world record holder, who has always been 100% clean, barred because of political campaigning.

Shameful display.

Even more shameful that you go on a rant about it while your own nation is actually worse than the one you´re ranting about.
The level of corruption in regards to doping in USA is among the highest in the world.
The Russian antidoping agency may have a harder time to catch cheaters due to being underfunded in a country that is much bigger and has less infrastructure, but at least they are not known for being corruptible.

Do you even understand that the allegations about "an extensive state sponsored doping program in the Russian Federation" does not have any supporting evidence? That the only evidence that DO exist are in fact evidence of absence of such a thing.

Daryl wrote:Point 1, check that there is no cheating with banned substances.
Point 2, check that the competitors are women. By inspection and if needed, no Y chromosome.
Point 3, shut up and let them compete.

If you ban people for this, then where do you stop?

Agreed.

Thing is, Caster does test as positive for banned substances.

Should note, M to F transgender athletes have to pass the same tests as any biological woman.
Including testosterone levels.

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