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Re: Baen Bar closed down. | |
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by clancy688 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:51 am | |
clancy688
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I think both are not allowed and are actually punishable.
It doesn't matter what vile a human being N might be, he got rights and legal protections just like everyone else does. Also, see my edit above, straight from Wikipedia about free speech. |
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Re: Baen Bar closed down. | |
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by Dilandu » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:53 am | |
Dilandu
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Since USA refused to take ICCPR obligations, this formality is not actually applicable. ------------------------------
Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave, Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave. (Red Army lyrics from 1945) |
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Re: Baen Bar closed down. | |
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by clancy688 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:57 am | |
clancy688
Posts: 557
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Okay? Then let's see what the Supreme Court has to say about this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... exceptions
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Re: Baen Bar closed down. | |
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by Dilandu » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:58 am | |
Dilandu
Posts: 2541
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Okay, so essentially we should forbade all literature staring from fairy tales. There are numerous acts of violences described here, you know (just recall Little Red Riding Hood!). And even if you argue that it's not applicable to fictional characters - which is, actually, debatable, since violence against fictional character could theoretically provoke someone on violence toward real peoples - there would be enormous number of historical, documentary, ect. literature, which must be forbidden. ------------------------------
Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave, Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave. (Red Army lyrics from 1945) |
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Re: Baen Bar closed down. | |
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by The E » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:59 am | |
The E
Posts: 2704
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No, what I'm saying is that you can't create a community based on "Free Speech" as an ideal. It's the paradox of tolerance over and over again: In order to create a tolerant community that can sustain a plurality of viewpoints, it is necessary for that community to be intolerant to viewpoints that call for the exclusion (or, as is the case with people fantasizing about an american civil war to root out all the liberals, killing) of others. Free Speech is absolutely necessary in the first amendment sense. Government influence on speech and the illegalization of speech is a massive issue that needs to be pulled back as far as possible. But that's not really applicable to communities created by, for example, an SF/F publishing house. In Baen's case, if their goal as a company is to promote a certain brand of writing and to build a community of fans of that writing, their approach to community moderation should take its cues from their approach to content curation. As Eric Flint argues at length, Baen's goal was to promote good books from authors that fit the Baen mold (whatever that is) regardless of the personal politics of the writers or Baen staff involved. On that axis, they've definitely been successful. However, their approach to community moderation does not match that commitment to a plurality of viewpoints. The community they built harbors some pretty toxic people who, as several posters here have attested from personal experience, have driven people away who would otherwise be engaged members of that community. Why did that happen? From my POV, it's because they've taken "Freedom of Speech" to be a core value of their moderation approach. This leads to the issues I talked about at length here; in the absence of effective moderation, the tone of the bar is set by the loudest people in it.
Dude. No. I have never, ever argued that. This is you intentionally misreading and cherrypicking, and I thought that that's a bad thing to do? |
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Re: Baen Bar closed down. | |
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by Dilandu » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:04 am | |
Dilandu
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Bingo) So you are not happy with me cherry-picking against you, but rather happy with Sanford doing this against those who you don't like. Now, that we researched "moral relativism" we could discuss why simplified general measures are remedies, not solutions. ------------------------------
Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave, Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave. (Red Army lyrics from 1945) |
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Re: Baen Bar closed down. | |
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by Dilandu » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:11 am | |
Dilandu
Posts: 2541
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With all respect, but as long as they are staying within THEIR community, they have right to fill their community with those who they liked. We could agree, that it may not be the most practical way of doing buisness, but while it is not practical to hammer a nail using microscope, as long as its their microscope, you could not accuse them of doing so. I may even agree, that communities with, say, "toxic" atmosphere validate more outside attention to their activity (i.e. that they are by definition more suspicious), but as long as they done nothing actually wrong or illegal - and collective masturbation on militia fantasy is not illegal - it could not be a reason to intervention. Essentially, its all about preventive intervention, frankly. Do you have right to interfere before anything was actually done? Or not? And if yes, then at which level you must stop? ------------------------------
Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave, Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave. (Red Army lyrics from 1945) |
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Re: Baen Bar closed down. | |
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by clancy688 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:13 am | |
clancy688
Posts: 557
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Dude, you're wrong. Violence in fictional stories against fictional people living in a fictional world is completely different from proposing violence against real people in the real world. |
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Re: Baen Bar closed down. | |
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by The E » Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:00 am | |
The E
Posts: 2704
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I am not happy with you misrepresenting me because we're just two dudes exchanging posts on the internet and I know that what you wrote about me was factually wrong. Sanford, on the other hand, doesn't do that. Noone is arguing that the posts Sanford cites directly do not exist; Flint's and apparently your disagreement is in how representative they are. Sanford argues that they are representative of a kind of poster whose presence raises questions about the priorities Baen has for their community; Flint (and you) argues that they're not representative of the bar as a whole and certainly not representative of some real danger that exists out in the world. That's definitely something one can have disagreements over.
Survivorship. Bias. Again and again and again. If the only people allowed to criticize a community for what it does and how its members behave as part of it are people in that community, if an outside perspective that isn't flattering must be shouted down into oblivion, then the potential of the community to attract new members is severely reduced.
People talked themselves into a frenzy because they imagined a child trafficking ring operating in the high society of US politics. People in the US were fantasizing about how the election was being stolen to such an extent that they filed dozens of spurious lawsuits and tried to kidnap elected officials. This sort of stuff does have real-world consequences, and it's not enough to incarcerate people who actually do commit crimes, it's also necessary to look into the why and how of them becoming radicalized and, more importantly, how to get them to step away from the brink. |
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Re: Baen Bar closed down. | |
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by Dilandu » Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:47 am | |
Dilandu
Posts: 2541
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And? Peoples also talked themselves into a frenzy about "Russian imvolvement" and invented stories about "Russia pays bounties for American soldiers". This stuff does have INTERNATIONAL consequences, but for some reason you are not arguing that promoters of said ideas must be shut up until they produce clear, undisputable evidences? That mass media and journalists must be silenced, not stir the public opinion against other nation because of mere rumors? That politicians who allow such accusations without overwhelming proofs being thrown must be severly reprimanded, removed from the places of power as they are dangerous and irresponsible? (waiting for "IT IS DIFFERENT!!! line...) ------------------------------
Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave, Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave. (Red Army lyrics from 1945) |
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