Under ground military bases

HB of CJ wrote:Anyhow, the USA alone could put about 10,000 top folks deep underground.

Ten thousand? That´s barely anything. You could stuff that many in Cheyenne mountain alone.

My old primary school could put 3000 people under 30m of rock just by itself.

I walk down into the ground floor here and about 150m down the corridor and there´s longterm room for a few hundred people under a 30m solid stone hill.

And then there´s stuff like this:
http://www.antus.org/bunker/agaberget.html

An underground factory, built 1943, manufactured parts for submarines and aircraft during WWII while also acting as a shelter for a few thousand people.
Other important companies like SAAB, Volvo, Bofors and SKF also had underground factories and structures.

Underground FFV gunpowder factory and shelter:
http://www.antus.org/FFVK.html

Pics from a coastal defense command center ( not in service, but not abandoned ):
http://www.antus.org/splats.html

Regional staff center:
http://www.antus.org/Lbo.html

SAAB underground factory in Linköping:
http://www.antus.org/SAAB.html
currently used as storage.

...

Tenshinai wrote:Ten thousand? That´s barely anything. You could stuff that many in Cheyenne mountain alone.

My old primary school could put 3000 people under 30m of rock just by itself.
...

I don't think any of your examples are anything close to the five-mile deep underground cities the tin-foil hat brigade wants to hold their conventions in.

That's really the key point about known bunkers and shelters; most were built as "cut and cover" or excavated in WWII or the Cold War using pneumatic drills and Dynamite or other conventional explosives -- long before modern TBMs were invented.

I'm sure there are bunkers and shelters that are still active and secret all over the world, but I really doubt that many -- if any -- are 100 meters or more underground. (That's not counting places like Cheyenne Mountain which are excavated horizontally under mountains.)

Very deep excavations/mines run into high temperatures fairly quickly. The deepest mine is only 2.4 miles and is about 131F without the air conditioning system running:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TauTona_Mine wrote:The TauTona Mine or Western Deep No.3 Shaft,[1] is a gold mine in South Africa. At 3.9 kilometers (2.4 mi) deep it is currently home to the world's deepest mining operations rivaled only by Mponeng gold mine with which it competes for #1 ranking.

...

The mine is so deep that temperatures in the mine can rise to life-threatening levels. Air conditioning equipment is used to cool the mine from 55 °C (131 °F) down to a more tolerable 28 °C (82 °F). The rock face temperature currently reaches 60 °C (140 °F).

By 2008, the mine reached 3.9 km (2.4 mi) underground. This made it the deepest mine in the world, surpassing the 3.5 km (2.2 mi) deep East Rand Mine by a considerable margin. This new shaft extended the depth from its previous 3.6 km (2.2 mi), and will extend the mine's life to 2015.

Ten thousand VIPs deep underground is only a vague estimate. There may be individuals in SW OR USA who might have forgotten where two, (2) old 1970's deep redoubts are somewhere in SW OR USA but non disclosure contracts still have the force of law even today.

Like in Sweden, lots of our Interstate highway systems from the air from light private aircraft seem to have very straight and level two, (2) mile long sections that seem slightly out of place. Humm. Rivers happen to run close by. Also solid rock big hills. Humm.

Also there might be an excess of Aluminum Foil in SW OR USA. Can anybody tell me the significance between the words "Oven Tempered" vs "Quilted Strength"? This is an important test question. Knowing the answer will proof you against all "KNOWN" threatening Space Aliens.

Cramming is the problem. You can stuff all sorts of numbers into some broom closet for a few hours. If any survive more than a few hours is problematic. We are talking decades here if necessary.

Air supply. Specifically meaning oxygen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, ketones, acetones, etc.. Filtering safe good air for months is old tech. For decades is new tech and very hard.

Then comes temperature regulation. More good ventilation needed to address that. Heat buildup is very hard to address. Then good water. Then food. Then some sort of emotion or morale maintenance.

Thus the rivers for cooling. Old tech. Thus the long runways for old jets. Thus the robbed submarine reactor cores to power the whole thing? A Los Angeles First Flight Sub de rated recored reactor?

Easy to cram in high numbers. Very hard to keep them healthy and eager after 10 years. Again, non disclosure contracts. We here in the USA will kill off 340 million citizen low persons to save VIPs.

Tenshinai wrote:

HB of CJ wrote:Anyhow, the USA alone could put about 10,000 top folks deep underground.

Ten thousand? That´s barely anything. You could stuff that many in Cheyenne mountain alone.

My old primary school could put 3000 people under 30m of rock just by itself.

I walk down into the ground floor here and about 150m down the corridor and there´s longterm room for a few hundred people under a 30m solid stone hill.

And then there´s stuff like this:
http://www.antus.org/bunker/agaberget.html

An underground factory, built 1943, manufactured parts for submarines and aircraft during WWII while also acting as a shelter for a few thousand people.
Other important companies like SAAB, Volvo, Bofors and SKF also had underground factories and structures.

Underground FFV gunpowder factory and shelter:
http://www.antus.org/FFVK.html

Pics from a coastal defense command center ( not in service, but not abandoned ):
http://www.antus.org/splats.html

Regional staff center:
http://www.antus.org/Lbo.html

SAAB underground factory in Linköping:
http://www.antus.org/SAAB.html
currently used as storage.

...

An ounce of prevention is worth 10 pounds of eRats

HB of CJ wrote:Cramming is the problem. You can stuff all sorts of numbers into some broom closet for a few hours. If any survive more than a few hours is problematic. We are talking decades here if necessary.

Air supply. Specifically meaning oxygen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, ketones, acetones, etc.. Filtering safe good air for months is old tech. For decades is new tech and very hard.

Then comes temperature regulation. More good ventilation needed to address that. Heat buildup is very hard to address. Then good water. Then food. Then some sort of emotion or morale maintenance.

Thus the rivers for cooling. Old tech. Thus the long runways for old jets. Thus the robbed submarine reactor cores to power the whole thing? A Los Angeles First Flight Sub de rated recored reactor?

Easy to cram in high numbers. Very hard to keep them healthy and eager after 10 years. Again, non disclosure contracts. We here in the USA will kill off 340 million citizen low persons to save VIPs.

So here are a few questions to consider... In England is Queen Elizabeth the VIP or is Charles... or considering that he is also a senior citizen, do they both get cut off of the list in favor Henry and his family???

Many of the super wealthy are also very old. For several years there have been discussions of how much wealth is about to change hands.

And... if Henry makes the list but his brother does not, do you think he would say "oh well" or would he say... Hey, if you are interested, there is a tunnel just outside of Liverpool where the weasels are going to hide while you and your loved ones die!!

Who would let that out on the internet in the US... Congress got us into this mess now they are hiding under rocks in VA.

"The level of terror must be maintained." Or the perceived long acting threat of serious prison time for blabbing has a sobering effect? Yep.

Non disclosure agreements. That means nobody can talk about it. We can glance off the edges here in this excellent forum, but no specifics.

But ... in the extreme unlikely possibility of a up and coming major world wide natural disaster happening, (also very unlikely) then perhaps?

Perhaps somebody would blab? Particularly if you and your family will most certainly be killed 1000 times while your elected idiot gets to live?

Yep. That would be a major concern. But none of this is ever even remotely going to happen. That is until it happens. What now Brown Cow?

Getting away, surviving and rebuilding after a major possible SW OR USA forest wild fire is doable. Even workable. Survivable. Plan able.

But a 5 mile, (8 km) nickel iron asteroid strike in the mid south Indian ocean? Nope. No way. We have only about 1 year before the shiet hits.

This is in SW OR USA about 43N, 123W like already mentioned. Sorry you cousins across the Pacific in Australia. Surf will be up on your West Coast.

It is that golden 1 year that might be very interesting. The military and VIPS have deep bolt holes. We do not. Yikes indeed. Oh boy.

Weird Harold wrote:I don't think any of your examples are anything close to the five-mile deep underground cities the tin-foil hat brigade wants to hold their conventions in.

Possibly. But my examples are(or were) REAL.

Weird Harold wrote:That's really the key point about known bunkers and shelters; most were built as "cut and cover" or excavated in WWII or the Cold War using pneumatic drills and Dynamite or other conventional explosives -- long before modern TBMs were invented.

Well yeah, that was kinda the point i was making... That big assed mountain lairs wasn´t something NEW.

Weird Harold wrote:I'm sure there are bunkers and shelters that are still active and secret all over the world, but I really doubt that many -- if any -- are 100 meters or more underground. (That's not counting places like Cheyenne Mountain which are excavated horizontally under mountains.)

Plenty of those here. Or at least 100m below something, as it´s common here to build into underneath hills and mountains, so something important might be 10-30m below ground level, but have 100-300m of mountain above it.

Weird Harold wrote:Very deep excavations/mines run into high temperatures fairly quickly. The deepest mine is only 2.4 miles and is about 131F without the air conditioning system running:

Yup, and while looking those things up i found that in 2013, an old base was sold to a company that was going to use it for geothermal energy production. It didn´t say exactly, but based on the article the base seemed to be about 200-300m below ground, about 2000 sqm large.

HB of CJ wrote:...

Like in Sweden, lots of our Interstate highway systems from the air from light private aircraft seem to have very straight and level two, (2) mile long sections that seem slightly out of place.
...

Yes, i know. You folks copied that from us, but you never really went through with it seriously, AFAIK, USA never had anything beyond trial units for mobile/improvised airbases of that kind.

Your aircraft were found to be extremely unsuitable for it. Needed too good and too long runways, and your ability to service the aircrafts away from base was minimal.

Swedish aircraft have had STOL ability, gear and air intakes to handle nonperfect runways ever since SAAB-29 from the 50s, even if it wasn´t until the SAAB-37 that it was taken really far. Despite being heavier than the F-16, it could take land on a third as long runway, or less.

And on the ground, 1 techie and 2-6 conscripts can service SAAB-37(or -39) much faster than 12 techies and an engineer can service an F-18.

I´ve always found that weird, because it´s not a matter of quality or even pricetag, but pure choice.

HB of CJ wrote:Easy to cram in high numbers. Very hard to keep them healthy and eager after 10 years.

10 years? If you NEED that, you´re in bigger trouble anyway.

HB of CJ wrote:Cramming is the problem. You can stuff all sorts of numbers into some broom closet for a few hours. If any survive more than a few hours is problematic. We are talking decades here if necessary.

Standard here was that for basic shelter, ie just a few days at most, 2 people per sqm, one quarter that for medium term protection, ie weeks or months, and IIRC, one quarter that for longterm shelters, ie year+.

And no, except in extreme circumstances there was never really anyone expecting decades.
That´s basically rubbish by the more ridiculous side of "survivalists".

Again, if you NEED to survive in a shelter for decades, it doesn´t really matter any more because you don´t have anything to return to on the surface anyway.

HB of CJ wrote:Air supply. Specifically meaning oxygen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, ketones, acetones, etc.. Filtering safe good air for months is old tech. For decades is new tech and very hard.

Not really. As long as anyone maintains the shelters here, the air filtering gear survives just fine literally for decades, they were built to last, and if you run out of power for them, there´s a handcrank.

HB of CJ wrote:Then comes temperature regulation. More good ventilation needed to address that. Heat buildup is very hard to address.

Only if amateurs are building the shelter.
Because by digging down under solid rock, you have an endless amount of surrounding cubage to use for heat exchange, preferably making it work on its own without any energy use.


Just as a comparison i might mention that up until just a decade ago, Sweden even maintained stores of gasmasks for every citizen... Kinda extreme.