GOD EXISTS

I am saddened by your experiences, Daryl. Yet, you distract yourself from the core question. The core question isn't whether the Christian God exists. It is whether The Creator exists or not. Do not presuppose the two are the same.

If the answer is No, he does not. Remaining angry at those misguided souls is a waste of effort. Enjoy life as best you can and let the chips fall where they may at life's end.

If the answer is Yes, then it is incumbent on you to discover what He requires from you. He created you for a purpose and true joy would come from fulfilling that purpose.

As it happens I do believe in Christ and I grew into that belief from being an agnostic. It took a while to become comfortable with the answer I found for the core question.

Daryl wrote:I lost my religion while still a child at a strict religious boarding school. It had been at risk for some time because I couldn't equate the sadistic behavior of the brothers with their preaching about love and forgiveness.
The pivotal point was their explanation of how forced conversions by their missionaries was justified because even if a pagan was a really good person they would burn in hell for eternity if they weren't baptized.

I know that they were people not little copies of their god, and I shouldn't judge a whole religion because of their actions, but it made me into a cynical questioner.

Some things just seem right or wrong to me; so when churches condemn gay marriage or innocent people just doing their own thing, yet seem not to have a problem with being money grubbing bigots themselves, I don't want anything to do with their belief or values.

As to "claiming that you know better morality than God (the omnipotent being over the universe)?", guilty as charged because I don't believe that, in the unlikely situation that here is such a being, those espousing any one of the thousands of religions have a clue about what her values are.

The E wrote:As you've stated previously. Now please define how an actor outside of the universe can affect anything inside it.

Obviously HE is Outside the Universe. Explain to me how anything "INSIDE" the Universe could create the Universe?

The E wrote:You define moral (behavior) as "whatever god does".

No, I didn't, it's what is best/less harmful for the greatest number of people.

The E wrote:no actual rules govern his (behavior), therefore he is not a moral actor in the same sense that he expects his believers to be.

This is right. Do you expect to be held to the same rules that you hold for (poor example but applicable) your dog? No, you can sit on the furniture, watch what you want on TV, Eat Bacon & sirloin steak, even pee on the floor if you want (assuming no higher power...wife... ) what would you do if your cat climbed on the table an started eating your pork chops? say "oh well, I eat them so you can too" (or more like finding an ant on them...SQUISH) - It is rather pompous of you to hold yourself up to gods level. You only exist (assuming he dose exist & creationism is correct) because he made you. Don't expect to be his boss.

The E wrote:Yes, actually. I know what my morals are. I know what shaped them. I know what the society I live in defines as moral (behavior), and I know what shaped those definitions.

You think you do, but you don’t know all things, even about yourself. No one does. God is omniscient, he actually does know, not just yours but everyone ever. He doesn’t just have his own point of view, but exists outside the limits of our universe and knows everyone’s point of view. Not just now, but throughout history and the future. And has made his decision on morality based on unlimited data.

The E wrote: If I happened to meet a person claiming to follow an entirely self-created morality, based upon the axiom that any (behavior) of said person is moral, I'd probably make a swift exit, cos lunatics like that generally aren't good company.

Isn't that exactly what your doing? "I know better than God, so I'm following my own, better, set of morality than what God said!"

The E wrote:...Look, I'd love to live in a world in which there is an absolute arbitrator of morality. Unfortunately, there isn't one.

Uh...yea, that's what we've been saying, there is one, called "God"

Holy shit, what a bunch of nonsense. Can you do anything except repeat, over and over, that god exists and that we must bow down before him?

Also, claiming that I can't know how I arrived at my personal philosophies, that I am incapable of identifying the philosophical tracks that led to it, that's a bit presumptious, isn't it?

EDIT: Let's get into the details, shall we?

MAD-4A wrote:Obviously HE is Outside the Universe. Explain to me how anything "INSIDE" the Universe could create the Universe?

How do you know that the universe was created through an act of a conscious entity?

The E wrote:no actual rules govern his (behavior), therefore he is not a moral actor in the same sense that he expects his believers to be.

This is right. Do you expect to be held to the same rules that you hold for (poor example but applicable) your dog? No, you can sit on the furniture, watch what you want on TV, Eat Bacon & sirloin steak, even pee on the floor if you want (assuming no higher power...wife... ) what would you do if your cat climbed on the table an started eating your pork chops? say "oh well, I eat them so you can too" (or more like finding an ant on them...SQUISH) - It is rather pompous of you to hold yourself up to gods level. You only exist (assuming he dose exist & creationism is correct) because he made you. Don't expect to be his boss.

So by virtue of him being more powerful, he is no longer to be held to the same sort of morality that you or I are? Sure. Remind me again how this is better than what PeterZ wrote here:

Two competing moralities have no objective arbiter for which is "better" because all points of view are subjective. The only objective means of persuasion is the use of force to compel adoption of a moral code. Baring compulsion, no argument can overcome the position that "this is what I believe to be right".

You decried this as "the arbitrary world of MAN". Funny, isn't it. Seems to me that the arbitrary world of god isn't that much better.

You think you do, but you don’t know all things, even about yourself. No one does. God is omniscient, he actually does know, not just yours but everyone ever. He doesn’t just have his own point of view, but exists outside the limits of our universe and knows everyone’s point of view. Not just now, but throughout history and the future. And has made his decision on morality based on unlimited data.

Funny, then, that this supposed omniscient morality has been redefined over and over again over the years. Turns out, god's really bad at enforcing his views.

Isn't that exactly what your doing? "I know better than God, so I'm following my own, better, set of morality than what God said!"

Except that, as far as I am concerned, god never said anything by virtue of total existence failure. The rules you attribute to god were made by humans.

The E wrote:...Look, I'd love to live in a world in which there is an absolute arbitrator of morality. Unfortunately, there isn't one.

Uh...yea, that's what we've been saying, there is one, called "God"

No, you believe there is one. Bit of a difference.

Circular argument here. I am curious as to how you know that out of all religions your particular variety of Christianity is the one that knows what the supreme being's values and rules are? Just saying it is in the bible isn't proof as the Koran or Talmud might contradict it.

If you claim that mankind cannot have an innate sense of right and wrong; then perhaps we should be sacrificing maidens at the altar, or enacting Odin's blood eagle rites? Just as much real verifiable proof for them as for yours, that is to say none.

Chilling thought, maybe one of the old vengeful gods is the real deal, has been distracted, and is about to send us all to the fire for lack of sacrifices?

Daryl wrote:Circular argument here. I am curious as to how you know that out of all religions your particular variety of Christianity is the one that knows what the supreme being's values and rules are? Just saying it is in the bible isn't proof as the Koran or Talmud might contradict it.

If you claim that mankind cannot have an innate sense of right and wrong; then perhaps we should be sacrificing maidens at the altar, or enacting Odin's blood eagle rites? Just as much real verifiable proof for them as for yours, that is to say none.

Chilling thought, maybe one of the old vengeful gods is the real deal, has been distracted, and is about to send us all to the fire for lack of sacrifices?

Just because, Robert Anson Heinlein, writing as lasarus Long, summed this up well. I am an Agnostic when it comes to God(s), but I am a firm A-religionist and this sums up my position about as well as it can be said.

The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history.

I don't think its a circular argument at all. Just because I believe in the Bible doesn't absolve me of the responsibility of testing that belief. In the end that testing persuades you that the Bible is right or it does not.

On the contrary, I claim that man has a very acute sense of right and wrong. We seek it in many different ways. My assertion was that absent an absolutely objective perspective, God, right and wrong are relative. Your views are truly equal to mine, no matter how repugnant my views might appear to you.

So, if the universe was not created and did indeed spring from nowhere out of nothing and consciousness only exists in the beings within it, there can be no objective point of view. One can assert one as a fiction and apply logic to that assertion, but those arguments will never be true. So, whatever definition of absolute justice is derived from such arguments no matter how useful is pure fiction.

As to whether the Creator is worth following, well that's part of our responsibility to discover.

Daryl wrote:Circular argument here. I am curious as to how you know that out of all religions your particular variety of Christianity is the one that knows what the supreme being's values and rules are? Just saying it is in the bible isn't proof as the Koran or Talmud might contradict it.

If you claim that mankind cannot have an innate sense of right and wrong; then perhaps we should be sacrificing maidens at the altar, or enacting Odin's blood eagle rites? Just as much real verifiable proof for them as for yours, that is to say none.

Chilling thought, maybe one of the old vengeful gods is the real deal, has been distracted, and is about to send us all to the fire for lack of sacrifices?

PeterZ your views are not repugnant to me, but I agree with everything else you have said below.

I simply seek truth, but in my case I have to have verifiable evidence. Would be easier for me if I could just believe.

"On the contrary, I claim that man has a very acute sense of right and wrong. We seek it in many different ways. My assertion was that absent an absolutely objective perspective, God, right and wrong are relative. Your views are truly equal to mine, no matter how repugnant my views might appear to you."

Just my 5 cents, you don't need to believe in a religion to have a moral compass. If you can't determine right from wrong you lack empathy, not religion.

Joat42 wrote:Just my 5 cents, you don't need to believe in a religion to have a moral compass. If you can't determine right from wrong you lack empathy, not religion.

No one argues religion is essential to morality. The issue is absent a Creator, there can be no objective morality. The jihadis moral code is equal to that of a pacifist, Hindu or a human sacrificing Aztec.

PeterZ wrote:No one argues religion is essential to morality. The issue is absent a Creator, there can be no objective morality. The jihadis moral code is equal to that of a pacifist, Hindu or a human sacrificing Aztec.

And the absence of a definitive authority on moral matters is bad how? Not like we actually had one at any point in the past 10000 years.