Why?

general thread for asking why certain bonehead moves were made.

i'll start with why did MA give 1st Gen cataphracts to the forces attacking Torch?

they expected no real trouble in space. they knew about the frigates and thought maybe some cruisers from either SKM or Haven.

the PNiE had over a dozen BC plus numerous smaller ships. I can understand giving them SDM pods as as a hedge against manty tech, but why give them cataphracts?

granted they didn't expect rozak and thought reports of the battle would only come via them but it still seems odd to use an hole card advantage @ a very non critical junction in the undeclared war.

There are a lot of seemingly plot driven decisions in that subseries. For example, when the Mesa forces are attacking the tower it is made absolutely clear that they both have on site extremely powerful vehicle mounted plasma guns and that plasma guns are so destructive to the ceramcrete that you can't use them inside the tower without causing structural collapse. However the Mesa forces WERE TRYING to cause structural collapse of the ENTIRE tower....

Dauntless wrote:general thread for asking why certain bonehead moves were made.

i'll start with why did MA give 1st Gen cataphracts to the forces attacking Torch?

they expected no real trouble in space. they knew about the frigates and thought maybe some cruisers from either SKM or Haven.

the PNiE had over a dozen BC plus numerous smaller ships. I can understand giving them SDM pods as as a hedge against manty tech, but why give them cataphracts?

granted they didn't expect rozak and thought reports of the battle would only come via them but it still seems odd to use an hole card advantage @ a very non critical junction in the undeclared war.

Was it boneheaded or was it what the PNiE insisted on before they agreed to carry out the attack? After all the PNiE would have been fundamentally aware of the advantage the Catphracts offered and that someone, maybe Manticore might have dropped off a few pods to help their new friends defend the system.

Additionally while it seems a non critical junction, could it be that the chance of securing the same advantage that Trevor's star offered the SKM vs the PRH was in fact valuable enough to justify the risk. Now that the SEM has multiple secured beachheads in SL space its statistically likely they are closer to Darius than any MA beachhead but Torch, to both the SEM and RoH. All this means that logistically it will be far easier for the GA (although no one expected it at the time) to attack the MA's core areas than they can attack the GA's.

Imagine what Honour would do both tactically and strategically vs someone who could only sortie one attack for every three she can make and she has a decent chance to get her striking force back into a covering position before her opponent can even arrive.

Removing that capability from your opponent or generating it for yourself is likely to completely change the balance of force in your favour. Indeed it was the basis of the SKM entire strategic thinking after Hancock.

In summation I'll agree it was a risk but much more calculated and worth it than we currently know thanks to the hidden location of Darius.

kzt wrote:There are a lot of seemingly plot driven decisions in that subseries. For example, when the Mesa forces are attacking the tower it is made absolutely clear that they both have on site extremely powerful vehicle mounted plasma guns and that plasma guns are so destructive to the ceramcrete that you can't use them inside the tower without causing structural collapse. However the Mesa forces WERE TRYING to cause structural collapse of the ENTIRE tower....

The problem was that they were not trying to collapse the building. They could have collapsed the entire top two thirds of the building and the core systems --- including the independent power supply --- would still be intact and the defenders would still be there. Sooner or later, they had to go in after the defenders or else seal the tower off and wait them out, and that was not politically acceptable. The commander wanted to use KEWs, but after the city killer which had been used to take out the first tower, the system government refused her permission to use even smaller, tactical KEWs because of the horrific negative press they were getting from the Solly newsies who were swarming the place. They preferred to spend the lives of their soldiers instead of political capital. And they were willing to do that because they had no idea 10th Fleet was coming.

I will admit that the story would have been a lot shorter had they just hauled off and turned the entire tower into a crater by using another multi-megaton KEW, but there were totally valid in-universe reasons (some of them not so good ones) for the decisions which were made.

The crux of it, though, was that political calculations overrode straight military considerations and that simply collapsing the upper floors and outer portions of the tower would not have satisfied the government's political objectives. Those objectives were: (1) suppress the rebelling decisively by crushing it so completely that no other Seccy will ever again even think about something like this and (2) do it without using the WMDs that killed so many free citizens and are so horrible in the eyes of the Solarian newsies. Objective, (1) requires that the rebels be defeated as rapidly as possible (not just "contained") and (2) requires [in the government's calculus] that you not use KEWs. These requirements are in direct contradiction to one another in many ways, and the only way to balance the equation was with a series of bloody direct assaults.

Think the Tractor Factory at Stalingrad on steroids.

Subutai Saul wrote:

Dauntless wrote:general thread for asking why certain bonehead moves were made.

i'll start with why did MA give 1st Gen cataphracts to the forces attacking Torch?

they expected no real trouble in space. they knew about the frigates and thought maybe some cruisers from either SKM or Haven.

the PNiE had over a dozen BC plus numerous smaller ships. I can understand giving them SDM pods as as a hedge against manty tech, but why give them cataphracts?

granted they didn't expect rozak and thought reports of the battle would only come via them but it still seems odd to use an hole card advantage @ a very non critical junction in the undeclared war.

Was it boneheaded or was it what the PNiE insisted on before they agreed to carry out the attack? After all the PNiE would have been fundamentally aware of the advantage the Catphracts offered and that someone, maybe Manticore might have dropped off a few pods to help their new friends defend the system.

Additionally while it seems a non critical junction, could it be that the chance of securing the same advantage that Trevor's star offered the SKM vs the PRH was in fact valuable enough to justify the risk. Now that the SEM has multiple secured beachheads in SL space its statistically likely they are closer to Darius than any MA beachhead but Torch, to both the SEM and RoH. All this means that logistically it will be far easier for the GA (although no one expected it at the time) to attack the MA's core areas than they can attack the GA's.

Imagine what Honour would do both tactically and strategically vs someone who could only sortie one attack for every three she can make and she has a decent chance to get her striking force back into a covering position before her opponent can even arrive.

Removing that capability from your opponent or generating it for yourself is likely to completely change the balance of force in your favour. Indeed it was the basis of the SKM entire strategic thinking after Hancock.

In summation I'll agree it was a risk but much more calculated and worth it than we currently know thanks to the hidden location of Darius.

The reasons they had Cataphracts were very simple:

(1) The PNiE knew about the existence of multidrive missiles in the arsenals of both the SKM and the ROH.

(2) They knew that Torch had been midwifed by both star nations, which presumably meant they might run into RMN or RHN units in-system when they attacked.

(3) They knew Torch had a defensive treaty with the SL in the form of Oraville Barregos, who was not likely to just stand by and watch if any of his people were present when this all went down.

(4) The Mesa system government and Manpower had to do something nice for the PNiE if they wanted the PNiE on their bench.

(5) The Mesans sorta wanted the PNiE to win, so they gave them the weapons they figured would give them the best chance to do that if the Manties or the Havenites (or the Erewhonese, who also have MDMs) happened to turn up.

Fair enough.

runsforcelery wrote:Think the Tractor Factory at Stalingrad on steroids.

I can sort of see that. But you can tunnel with a plasma gun. So you set you initial aimpoint at ground level say 1500 meters away from the main elevator and start shooting.

I'll assume you get the gun depressed 3% below horizontal and can strike the ground level there. To do this you need a 100 meter or so tall parking garage (or similar heavy structure) about 5 KM way, which seems doable.

Each round is a low yield nuclear blast. So eventually, and I doubt it will take over 3000 shots, you will end up punching a hole into the central core about 50 meters under ground. Which should take care of anyone hiding down there. And, given the spectacular failure mode typical of Honorverse fusion reactors, it will likely take care of anyone in the building.

While this isn't going to be very fast, since I doubt the have a really high rof, but with a shot every 30 seconds you can do it in a day or so.

And you don't have just one vehicle mounted plasma cannon.

Now the argument can be made that they could counter-attack the vehicle mounted plasma cannons. And they could, but that puts them out in the open attacking a dug in combat brigade...

But it was still a fun book.

kzt wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:Think the Tractor Factory at Stalingrad on steroids.

I can sort of see that. But you can tunnel with a plasma gun. So you set you initial aimpoint at ground level say 1500 meters away from the main elevator and start shooting.

I'll assume you get the gun depressed 3% below horizontal and can strike the ground level there. To do this you need a 100 meter or so tall parking garage (or similar heavy structure) about 5 KM way, which seems doable.

Each round is a low yield nuclear blast. So eventually, and I doubt it will take over 3000 shots, you will end up punching a hole into the central core about 50 meters under ground. Which should take care of anyone hiding down there. And, given the spectacular failure mode typical of Honorverse fusion reactors, it will likely take care of anyone in the building.

While this isn't going to be very fast, since I doubt the have a really high rof, but with a shot every 30 seconds you can do it in a day or so.

And you don't have just one vehicle mounted plasma cannon.

Now the argument can be made that they could counter-attack the vehicle mounted plasma cannons. And they could, but that puts them out in the open attacking a dug in combat brigade...

But it was still a fun book.

No offense but this sounds like an academic theory - Not someone who is pointing a weapon at You intending to kill You & Erase You from Existance.

Give me a rock that can kill someone dedicated to killing Me & I will take it from there

Nimitz

kzt wrote:I can sort of see that. But you can tunnel with a plasma gun.

Doubt that. Plasma is norotiously bad as weapon - basically after you solve all those nasty problems with producing military-grade plasma and persuading it to do what you want, you would already have tech to build something more sensible - like, personal charged particle rifle.

Dilandu wrote:Doubt that. Plasma is norotiously bad as weapon - basically after you solve all those nasty problems with producing military-grade plasma and persuading it to do what you want, you would already have tech to build something more sensible - like, personal charged particle rifle.

A Honorverse plasma gun is basically a small nuclear explosion with the energy highly focused towards the target. Casaba howitzer is the code name used for this in the 60s. It’s still rather highly classified. It’s extremely destructive. Like 30 GJ per square meter at 5 km for a 50 kilo charge.