Transtellars after Laccoon II

Given that Hauptman's enterprises are effectively a Transtellar, just not as corrupt and venal as the SLN corporate interests. So my question is, aside from "character reform", how does a Solarian Transtellar have to adapt and change? aka since we know they are a big part of the problem... what's the "private enterprise solution" that quote unquote helps the HonorVerse become freer, geopolitically?

SharkHunter wrote:Given that Hauptman's enterprises are effectively a Transtellar, just not as corrupt and venal as the SLN corporate interests. So my question is, aside from "character reform", how does a Solarian Transtellar have to adapt and change? aka since we know they are a big part of the problem... what's the "private enterprise solution" that quote unquote helps the HonorVerse become freer, geopolitically?

I think you need to say "sterotypical Solly TransStellars" here. We've only been presented with those who are aggregous examples of corporate greed. While most may be following this pattern, there is ample room for many others who prize human lives and dignity over profit margin.

Theemile wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Given that Hauptman's enterprises are effectively a Transtellar, just not as corrupt and venal as the SLN corporate interests. So my question is, aside from "character reform", how does a Solarian Transtellar have to adapt and change? aka since we know they are a big part of the problem... what's the "private enterprise solution" that quote unquote helps the HonorVerse become freer, geopolitically?

I think you need to say "sterotypical Solly TransStellars" here. We've only been presented with those who are aggregous examples of corporate greed. While most may be following this pattern, there is ample room for many others who prize human lives and dignity over profit margin.

Hear hear!! [ though I like "hear here" better even though it's historically inaccurate... ] and well said. Of course, even Hauptman had to clean house back after OBS. Question still stands though, Manticore doesn't want to allow folks to continue to exploit the populaces once Laccoon is relaxed, and some of the Transtellars actively aided and abetted Manpower, the Mandarins, etc.

So it's an interesting governance/change the galaxy question, no? because if Manticore doesn't want to be the "military conquerers", they also don't want to be the galaxy's merchant police or thought police.

Though they could win a pretty good and limited scope win by using asking a few treecats to help interview Transtellar corporate folks, ship captains, and officers to encourage the guilty to... well, change professions at least. Turn a few over to Saburo for second interviews.

Even some of the nasties will be based in systems that will take a very dim view of their behaviour once it becomes known. Sometimes, from the embarrassment of being associated with things they were ready to turn a blind eye to, but often because they really were kept in the dark. That's not too hard to do: if there's no more than vague rumours, and an assurance from Commerce that they'll be investigated properly, a lot of systems wouldn't really be able to police activities on the far side of the League.

Many other systems will have said to their flagship transtellars "that may be how Kalokainos operates, but if we ever get a hint that you're doing it, you're toast", so their companies will be pretty clean already. This is also something that happens in real life: lots of Bristol merchants wouldn't ever go near the slave trade, but for decades took no action to suppress it either.

SharkHunter wrote:Given that Hauptman's enterprises are effectively a Transtellar, just not as corrupt and venal as the SLN corporate interests. So my question is, aside from "character reform", how does a Solarian Transtellar have to adapt and change? aka since we know they are a big part of the problem... what's the "private enterprise solution" that quote unquote helps the HonorVerse become freer, geopolitically?

SharkHunter wrote:

Theemile wrote:
I think you need to say "sterotypical Solly TransStellars" here. We've only been presented with those who are aggregous examples of corporate greed. While most may be following this pattern, there is ample room for many others who prize human lives and dignity over profit margin.

Hear hear!! [ though I like "hear here" better even though it's historically inaccurate... ] and well said. Of course, even Hauptman had to clean house back after OBS. Question still stands though, Manticore doesn't want to allow folks to continue to exploit the populaces once Laccoon is relaxed, and some of the Transtellars actively aided and abetted Manpower, the Mandarins, etc.

So it's an interesting governance/change the galaxy question, no? because if Manticore doesn't want to be the "military conquerers", they also don't want to be the galaxy's merchant police or thought police.

Though they could win a pretty good and limited scope win by using asking a few treecats to help interview Transtellar corporate folks, ship captains, and officers to encourage the guilty to... well, change professions at least. Turn a few over to Saburo for second interviews.

SharkHunter wrote:Given that Hauptman's enterprises are effectively a Transtellar, just not as corrupt and venal as the SLN corporate interests. So my question is, aside from "character reform", how does a Solarian Transtellar have to adapt and change? aka since we know they are a big part of the problem... what's the "private enterprise solution" that quote unquote helps the HonorVerse become freer, geopolitically?

I think one of the points about being a "Transtellar" is that you aren't associated with any particular nation; In that respect there is no such thing as a "solarian Transtellar."

Lacoon II only closes Wormholes to "Solarian Flagged" shipping. Jessyk Combine, for example uses "Mesa Flagged" ships and would theoretically be unaffected by Lacoon. Jessyk has other problems with Manticore being Mesan, but they should be able to conduct the legitimate business they use as a cover.

Since Lacoon is only concerned with where ships are flagged, I would expect most Transtellars that use their own ships to re-flag them in some nominally independent nation (if they haven't already done so to avoid SL fees.) In effect, cutting the Mandarins loose to sink or fall on their own. A few Transtellars will strongly identify as "Solarian" but they will be those so heavily invested in the Mandarins/League Government or anti-manticore (like Kalokainos and Technodyne of Yildun)) but those are likely going to be addressed separately for direct offenses against Manticore. Anyone involved in the Monica plot should probably plan on using longer routes than the wormholes.

Most of what we have seen in the way of doing bad things by transtellars has been the ones who have been deeply involved with helping OFS strip systems of resources. These are people who are working any one of several types of operations where they are able to be effectivly above the law in a given system and just keep piling up the money and power. We aren't shown anyone who is not doing that except perhaps Hauptmann (though there were certainly people working for his companies who were doing criminal things and/or assisting Haven.

Transtellars who own or operate starships are going to have to have them flagged somewhere. Jessyk may or may not have used Mesa registrations on all it's ships. It depends on what the benefits of a particular situation is. In prior times SL flagged probably carried various advantages vs fees and tariffs on in League Member Systems and in OFS Protectorates. On the other hand, that shipping line that leased Manticorian freighters (presumably with Manticor registrations) would have probably been able to take advantage of that in terms of Manticore Wormhole junction fees and treaty fee reductions when dealing with the systems at the termini ends of the system.

So, if a Transtellar had ships flagged from someplace on the far side of the SL and by a system that was not a member, it would -probably- not be affected by Lacoon I. The "probably" comes from what else was included in the details of Lacoon I including types of cargo and either/or shippers or end-users/destination of any particular shipment.

Okay, this is a bit of a political minefield, but I think that the Solarian and Mesan transstellars' excesses are informed by two main factors, namely that they are allowed a degree of sovereign operation that exceeds even that of most star nations, and that their complete freedom from government oversight and public accountability allows them to basically pursue whatever course of action they choose in the pursuit of profit.

As for reforming those transstellars, it really depends on the outcome of the current interstellar political crisis. What is needed are strong governments that are willing and able to enact and enforce laws to regulate commerce and industry, and to prevent the kind of corruption that was so rife within the League's federal bureaucracy.

Nico wrote:Okay, this is a bit of a political minefield, but I think that the Solarian and Mesan transstellars' excesses are informed by two main factors, namely that they are allowed a degree of sovereign operation that exceeds even that of most star nations, and that their complete freedom from government oversight and public accountability allows them to basically pursue whatever course of action they choose in the pursuit of profit.

As for reforming those transstellars, it really depends on the outcome of the current interstellar political crisis. What is needed are strong governments that are willing and able to enact and enforce laws to regulate commerce and industry, and to prevent the kind of corruption that was so rife within the League's federal bureaucracy.

There is no real SL government. That's the issue in at the root of the whole thing. A strong government that can enforce laws over hundreds if not thousands of worlds is not exactly what Manticore is aiming for.

kzt wrote:

Nico wrote:Okay, this is a bit of a political minefield, but I think that the Solarian and Mesan transstellars' excesses are informed by two main factors, namely that they are allowed a degree of sovereign operation that exceeds even that of most star nations, and that their complete freedom from government oversight and public accountability allows them to basically pursue whatever course of action they choose in the pursuit of profit.

As for reforming those transstellars, it really depends on the outcome of the current interstellar political crisis. What is needed are strong governments that are willing and able to enact and enforce laws to regulate commerce and industry, and to prevent the kind of corruption that was so rife within the League's federal bureaucracy.

There is no real SL government. That's the issue in at the root of the whole thing. A strong government that can enforce laws over hundreds if not thousands of worlds is not exactly what Manticore is aiming for.

Which is why I used the plural. There is no doubt that the League will be succeeded by multiple successor states - elsewhere I explained the rationale for my estimate of upwards of 500 such states.

The real problem is, of course, that many of those states, as well as many of the thousands of worlds in the former Protectorates and the Verge, will end up being rogue states - controlled by pirates, warlords and, yes, even corporations (local or transstellar) - that will more than likely be willing to turn a blind eye to exploitative business practices and corporate corruption.

Now, given the limitations of international/interstellar law, I think it is reasonable to assume that a major trading power such as the Star Empire will be loathe to interfere in every single instance of excess. Unless, of course, such business practices impact directly and to an unignorable degree on their own interests.

Therefore it is extremely unlikely that we'll see the complete transformation/reformation of every major transstellar. Many will simply seek to 'go underground', so to speak.

--snipping--
...after spitting, that is...
[quote="Weird Harold"']I think one of the points about being a "Transtellar" is that you aren't associated with any particular nation; In that respect there is no such thing as a "solarian Transtellar."

Lacoon II only closes Wormholes to "Solarian Flagged" shipping. Jessyk Combine, for example uses "Mesa Flagged" ships and would theoretically be unaffected by Lacoon. Jessyk has other problems with Manticore being Mesan, but they should be able to conduct the legitimate business they use as a cover.[/quote] Somehow I think Mesan and "unaffected by Lacoon are whatever that big long word that means "not going to happen in this or any other universe". I'd wager that EVERY Mesan transtellar shipment arriving at a wormhole junction controlled by the GA is going to get the "fine tooth comb treatment", because at the end of Cauldron of Ghosts, Zilwicki and Cachat have both figured out that all the MAlign folks bugged out. With the implication that it's likely part of 10th Fleet arriving -- meaning that Henke got the information next, prolly launched a dispatch boat directly from her fleet space with Zilwicki and Cachat aboard (to Torch, which can then pop to Erewhon and back to Manticoran space) -- and another direct to Elizabeth and White Haven saying "stop all Mesa related ships".

Good but stressful and important time to be a really good dispatch boat commander, methinks.