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Wedge sizes

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Wedge sizes
Post by MaxxQ   » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:53 pm

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So, as I mentioned in another thread, I talked to Tom at the BuNine Meeting a couple weekends ago, and asked if he could give me some info on wedge sizes for various classes of ships. He came through for me today, and basically gave me a copy of his RMN ship spreadsheets. Lots of great info, 90% of which I have no idea what it is, so don't ask.

Anyway, before I get the info posted, I need to mention a couple things: first, all numbers given are in kilometers (of course), and second, the wedges are square. Also, the ships listed are pretty much all the ships listed in HoS, minus the Grayson ships - Tom only gave me RMN info.

I'm not sure if there are enough data points elsewhere, but the info I put in that other thread is accurate for the CA Fearless, which is one data point for figuring what the distances from the ship the wedge planes are, and also for the size of the openings (throat and kilt).

Also, there was no info on wedges for missiles, pinnaces, CMs, etc.

So, on to the info that a few of you want to see:

SD(P)

Medusa-B - 342
Medusa - 336
Invictus - 339

SD

Victory - 326
Sphinx - 331
Samothrace - 318
Manticore - 307
King William - 317
Gryphon - 333
Anduril - 322

DN

Royal Winton - 295
Majestic - 310
Gladiator - 312
Bellerophon - 314
AdAstra - 258

CLAC

Minotaur - 275
Hydra - 274

BC & BC(P)

Agamemnon - 198
Reliant - 173
Reliant III - 177
Redoubtable - 167
Nike - 246
Homer - 170

CA

Warrior - 115
Truncheon - 114
Star Knight - 127
Edward Saganami - 138
Saganami-B - 142
Saganami-C - 148
Prince Consort - 118
Crusader - 116
Broadsword - 129

CL

Kamerling (CL(L)) - 138
Valiant - 114
Talisman - 106
Illustrious - 109
Courageous - 95
Courageous (Fearless Refit) - 95
Avalon - 112
Apollo - 106
Apollo Extension (Flight IV) - 107

DD

Wolfhound - 104
Roland - 108
Noblesse - 85
Javelin - 93
Havoc - 92
Falcon - 86
Culverin - 98
Chanson - 89

LAC

Highlander - 34
Series 282 - 39
Shrike - 41
Shrike-B - 42
Ferret - 41

AMC

Caravan - 261
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Re: Wedge sizes
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:48 am

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Thanx for the time and effort! :D
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Wedge sizes
Post by Theemile   » Sat Jul 16, 2016 6:43 am

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Thanks Maxxq.

One interesting Data point... Medusa B. Reopens the question, did one or 2 actually get built before OB?

The RMN has had hundreds of theoretical designs over the years, so why include just 1 ship that never was?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Wedge sizes
Post by Relax   » Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:40 am

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So, wedge area scales linearly with tonnage...
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Tally Ho!
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Re: Wedge sizes
Post by darrell   » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:26 am

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Relax wrote:So, wedge area scales linearly with tonnage...


not quite. the medusa SDP wedge is 336^2=112,896

if they scaled linearly by tonnage, the reliant BC wedge would be 10k-15K. Instead it is 173^2=29,929
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Re: Wedge sizes
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:32 am

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Relax wrote:So, wedge area scales linearly with tonnage...

Not really. Plotting those against tonnage and playing with trend lines even my quick and dirty first analysis shows that a power series is a far better fit (though locally that's not far off from linear; but when stretched across the range of tonnages...)

Image
(or click here for slightly larger version.

I should go back and make some close-ups of various parts of that charge. I don't have a big enough display to make the whole chart readable at once.


Initial eyeball looks like the LACs are slightly off line. Might play with removing them.

I'd certainly want to remove the Wayfarer since it's merchant-grade wedge is clearly off on a different curve. Looks like the pair of CLACs is off as well (which does actually fit in with them being lower accel than you'd guess from their tonnage and year in-service.)
But what's also interesting is that the designs laid down with improved compensators do appear to be on trend-line; the increased design acceleration didn't cause a change in their design wedge size.
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Re: Wedge sizes
Post by Somtaaw   » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:53 am

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Thanks for the great base post Maxx, and then the neat little visual chart from Jon... would almost want to make this good thread stickied, as I'm sure many of us will be wanting to refer to it at various points over the next few years.
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Re: Wedge sizes
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:04 am

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Somtaaw wrote:Thanks for the great base post Maxx, and then the neat little visual chart from Jon... would almost want to make this good thread stickied, as I'm sure many of us will be wanting to refer to it at various points over the next few years.

Thanks, and you're welcome.

And I forgot to also thank Maxxq for providing those details. So Thank you Maxxq.


(And full disclosure I did drop two data points before making that chart; the Medusa-B and the Courageous (Fearless Refit) because House of Steel doesn't list them to provide tonnages)
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Re: Wedge sizes
Post by MaxxQ   » Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:26 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:Thanks for the great base post Maxx, and then the neat little visual chart from Jon... would almost want to make this good thread stickied, as I'm sure many of us will be wanting to refer to it at various points over the next few years.

Thanks, and you're welcome.

And I forgot to also thank Maxxq for providing those details. So Thank you Maxxq.


(And full disclosure I did drop two data points before making that chart; the Medusa-B and the Courageous (Fearless Refit) because House of Steel doesn't list them to provide tonnages)


A general "you're welcome" to all.

I debated whether to keep the Medusa-B and the Courageous/Fearless refit, *because* they weren't listed in HoS, but I thought there might have been some interest in those two ships. Technically, the list should be nearly twice as long, as there were many ships and ship types I didn't even recognize. <forrestgump> And that's all I have to say about that </forrestgump>

Edit: Also, Tom *did* say that wedge size gets "interesting" for small stuff like missiles. But I suppose that's expected considering how overpowered they are, and that they don't have to consider organics.
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Re: Wedge sizes
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:41 am

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MaxxQ wrote:
Edit: Also, Tom *did* say that wedge size gets "interesting" for small stuff like missiles. But I suppose that's expected considering how overpowered they are, and that they don't have to consider organics.

Yeah, that would have to be a totally different chart, since we're told missiles have IIRC a 10 km wide wedge; but a Highlander LAC massing dozens of times as much has only a 34 km one.

And that's probably barely even the beginning ofthe "interesting" items about them.
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