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Manticore lifestyle

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Manticore lifestyle
Post by Daryl   » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:46 pm

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While I enjoy reading about Honor, Elizabeth, Hamish and many others, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable in their society.
Prolong, antigravity, interstellar travel and such would be great, but other advanced planets have them as well.

The idea of hereditary royalty, and aristocracy that have actual power is something I would resist totally here. Along with that is society's expectation that these people should be respected simply because they were born into privilege. I know RFC has modeled much from early 1900s UK and Europe, and it is a great read, but not nice for the average citizen.

Dueling, armed retainers, much of the population barred from voting, street crime persisting in the richest society of the future; all make it exotic and interesting, but in many ways more primitive than us.

I'd be off to Beowulf. Much more my style.
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Re: Manticore lifestyle
Post by kzt   » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:40 pm

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Daryl wrote:armed retainers, much of the population barred from voting, street crime persisting in the richest society of the future; all make it exotic and interesting, but in many ways more primitive than us.

You haven't heard of New York City or Michael Bloomberg? The guy who has a platoon of armed guards around him in Bermuda as well as the US? If YOU were to bring a gun into Bermuda you'd be in jail for 10 years, but for his guys, no problem.
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Re: Manticore lifestyle
Post by pnakasone   » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:59 pm

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Daryl wrote:While I enjoy reading about Honor, Elizabeth, Hamish and many others, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable in their society.
Prolong, antigravity, interstellar travel and such would be great, but other advanced planets have them as well.

The idea of hereditary royalty, and aristocracy that have actual power is something I would resist totally here. Along with that is society's expectation that these people should be respected simply because they were born into privilege. I know RFC has modeled much from early 1900s UK and Europe, and it is a great read, but not nice for the average citizen.

Dueling, armed retainers, much of the population barred from voting, street crime persisting in the richest society of the future; all make it exotic and interesting, but in many ways more primitive than us.

I'd be off to Beowulf. Much more my style.


To get to vote is easy all you have to do is pay 1 dollar more in taxes then you receive in direct benefit payments from the government.
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Re: Manticore lifestyle
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:35 am

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Daryl wrote:Dueling, armed retainers, much of the population barred from voting, street crime persisting in the richest society of the future; all make it exotic and interesting, but in many ways more primitive than us.

I'd be off to Beowulf. Much more my style.
Most Manticorans do get to vote; very few get more in direct government transfer payments than they pay in taxes. Pay one cent more in tax than you receive back from the government and you're eligible to vote (this is done on a household level; so simply deciding to be a stay at home parent doesn't deprive you of your vote). And within in your district in the commons your vote counts just as much as anybody else's.

Beowulf is more complicated. I'm not sure what the limits on the franchise are, but RFC described their meritocratic & professions based voting system once and it's kind of a mess. Basically the votes get apportioned out to professions then within the profession your skill or standing or whatever gives you a bigger or smaller fraction of that professions votes.
So within, say, surgeons you are a first year intern you might get a tiny fraction of a vote while the head surgeon of the premier trama center might get 40 times your vote. Then that get multiplied by the fraction of the vote assigned to the profession of surgeons to figure out how much of the planetary vote ultimately counts. (So a mid level genetic researcher might get significantly more voting clout in planetary elections than the very top of their field baker; because that baker would get a higher percentage of the votes allocated to bakers; but genetic research is likely considered a much higher importance profession so even a smaller piece of a bigger pie might outweigh the large piece of the small pie.

Like I said, complicated. (And I might be slightly mangling this, because this was from a panel questions at a con; so I can't go back to his original text)
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Re: Manticore lifestyle
Post by Daryl   » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:23 am

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I deliberately posted this in a style such as to encourage discussion, plus draw out information like Bewoulf's voting system (sounds like Corvalis in Dies the Fire). Not totally committed personally, more for talking points.

Another point is the flat tax system, where a shop assistant pays the same rate as a billionaire (on second thoughts it might be fairer than our current systems).



As an aside, our last progressive government passed a law ordering our tax office to post the income, profits and tax paid by the 1500 biggest corporations. The current conservative government tried to roll it back but were blocked by the Senate. End result, more than 500 pay no tax, the next 500 pay little tax, and the rest are honest. Little things like paying your entire profit of multi billions to a connected company in Singapore for "financial advice".
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Re: Manticore lifestyle
Post by JeffEngel   » Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:38 am

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Daryl wrote:I deliberately posted this in a style such as to encourage discussion, plus draw out information like Bewoulf's voting system (sounds like Corvalis in Dies the Fire). Not totally committed personally, more for talking points.

Another point is the flat tax system, where a shop assistant pays the same rate as a billionaire (on second thoughts it might be fairer than our current systems).

I cringe at the notion of a flat tax myself, but if you factor in the (implied) absence of ways to evade the tax on the upper income earners and generous provisions for basic needs for the low income earners, you get the same sort of practical result a progressive income tax is meant to provide.

It does depend on good policies and effective and resolute enforcement of them to prevent legal or at least accepted tax evasion on the part of the uber-wealthy and making sure that the benefits on the opposite end aren't used to disenfranchise people more than they actually benefit from them. It boggles the mind to suppose the system would survive under a High Ridge government, or even the Centrist/Conservative coalitions, without becoming a screw-the-poor fiasco. There, I make a face and exercise the suspension of disbelief. We've got to use it for physics, we may as well use it for political science as well.
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Re: Manticore lifestyle
Post by phillies   » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:22 am

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The most important issue with prolong is that it has odd effects on savings for retirement, and by implication return on any investment. As it stands now, if you put away 15 or so % of your income, when you retire your income will go up. Almost every college professor you will met, except in CA, is in this pleasant boat. That's after a roughly 50-year career effort, from starting college at 18 give or take to retiring in your late 60s.

Now, suppose you save less, but for longer. If returns on investment resemble the USA over the last century, before you reach 100 (now called young) you are udner no financial pressure to work.

Clearly this is not going to happen, and instead there will be huge amounts of investment capital available, and RoI levels will be very low. Bonds will go for near-zero interest; stock prices will go through the ceiling and be highly unstable.
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Re: Manticore lifestyle
Post by noblehunter   » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:20 pm

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The impression I got of the Manticoran flat tax is that it was intended more to ensure citizens had an investment in the government than to actually provide revenue. The Junction would make any flat income-tax a mere footnote. If the rate was high enough to get serious revenue out of the rich, the poor would be destitute. Only a progressive tax that could tax the rich without burdening the poor intolerably.
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Re: Manticore lifestyle
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:35 pm

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noblehunter wrote:The impression I got of the Manticoran flat tax is that it was intended more to ensure citizens had an investment in the government than to actually provide revenue. The Junction would make any flat income-tax a mere footnote. If the rate was high enough to get serious revenue out of the rich, the poor would be destitute. Only a progressive tax that could tax the rich without burdening the poor intolerably.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Manticore lifestyle
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:41 pm

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noblehunter wrote:The impression I got of the Manticoran flat tax is that it was intended more to ensure citizens had an investment in the government than to actually provide revenue. The Junction would make any flat income-tax a mere footnote. If the rate was high enough to get serious revenue out of the rich, the poor would be destitute. Only a progressive tax that could tax the rich without burdening the poor intolerably.



a 5% flat tax would take $500 from somebody making $10,000 and $50,000 from someone making $1 million. How would that be burdensome?

If the average wage earner made ~$100,000, and there were ~1 billion wage earners, that's 5 trillion a year in taxes from that flat tax. - and that's not counting junction fees and corporate taxes.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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