Rolling Cannon Balls Across The Deck In The Honorverse ...

Is it just me or do I constantly detect recurring themes or trends in the Honorverse Navies of blind dumb obedience to non intelligent orders that would result in the deaths of all?

The Haven attack on the Manitore home system comes to mind. Is it possible that the many ten thousands of Havenites knew their odds were very grim? And if so, why did they not express this fact?

Hundreds of years ago in the wood sailing ship navel era, disgrunted ratings would roll iron cannon balls across the various gun decks as a method of expressing their extreme displeasure.

How come in all the many excellent Honorverse novels, we never once, that I am aware, see any ball rolling? Not one chirp or word of dissatification from any crew from any navy? And why?

HB of CJ (old coot) Junior Captain. I love this excellent Forum!

HB of CJ wrote:Is it just me or do I constantly detect recurring themes or trends in the Honorverse Navies of blind dumb obedience to non intelligent orders that would result in the deaths of all?

The Haven attack on the Manitore home system comes to mind. Is it possible that the many ten thousands of Havenites knew their odds were very grim? And if so, why did they not express this fact?

Hundreds of years ago in the wood sailing ship navel era, disgrunted ratings would roll iron cannon balls across the various gun decks as a method of expressing their extreme displeasure.

How come in all the many excellent Honorverse novels, we never once, that I am aware, see any ball rolling? Not one chirp or word of dissatification from any crew from any navy? And why?

HB of CJ (old coot) Junior Captain. I love this excellent Forum!

Because the simple act of expressing that displeasure where your superiors can see it can have negative effects on your career? Which depending on the Navy and time period can range from being given shit duties to being tortured to death.

Also, someone's forgetting a quartet of would-be deserters from the HMS Wayfarer.

Because that's what disciplined, motivated troops do. The problems come when they believe they're being ordered into danger to no good purpose, as happened in the German High Seas Fleet in late 1918.

Dafmeister wrote:Because that's what disciplined, motivated troops do. The problems come when they believe they're being ordered into danger to no good purpose, as happened in the German High Seas Fleet in late 1918.

And in the specific example of the Battle of Manticore, the RHN was going in with surprise and massive numerical superiority, in an attempt to win the war outright before Apollo destroyed their star nation and all their hopes in it.

If that's "blind obedience", it'd be hard to find things like duty or patriotism outside it.

HB of CJ wrote:Is it just me or do I constantly detect recurring themes or trends in the Honorverse Navies of blind dumb obedience to non intelligent orders that would result in the deaths of all?

The Haven attack on the Manitore home system comes to mind. Is it possible that the many ten thousands of Havenites knew their odds were very grim? And if so, why did they not express this fact?

Hundreds of years ago in the wood sailing ship navel era, disgrunted ratings would roll iron cannon balls across the various gun decks as a method of expressing their extreme displeasure.

How come in all the many excellent Honorverse novels, we never once, that I am aware, see any ball rolling? Not one chirp or word of dissatification from any crew from any navy? And why?

HB of CJ (old coot) Junior Captain. I love this excellent Forum!

Actually, Haven had a reasonable chance of success at the Battle of Manticore.

In any case, the only other option available to Haven was surrender. If the option is either a bold attack or surrender your home system and lose the war, I don't think it is unreasonable for people to go with the bold attack.

And finally, just because the books don't mention any grumbling among the non-comms about the battle doesn't mean there wasn't any. Once again--NOT EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS GETS MENTIONED IN THE BOOKS. These are books involving the actions and interactions of millions of people. We would need a series the size of the Library of Congress to give us every detail. If it doesn't impact the story, there is no need to mention it. There were hundreds of ship captains in the fleets--we only saw a handful of them. We have no way of knowing whether some of those captains had misgivings about the battle, let alone whether any of their officers did, or any of their crewmen. Because on the scale of the Fleet it didn't matter. The battle was going to happen anyway, because there was no other option and because the government ordered it. We saw what the Fleet did, and what a few specific ships did, and even then only from the perspective of a few people. We can't see everything.

Operation Beatrice had very good chances of success. The revitalised RoH navy would have had good morale due to the victories of Thunderbolt and the chance to fight on 'even terms' that Bolthole had provided them. They had good leadership, both military and political and I believe they also felt they had a cause worth fighting for. I don't know why they would feel any significant dissent.

I think we do see some dissent in Honor Amoung Enemies from the nasty lower-deck types that were bullying Wanderman.

HB of CJ wrote:Is it just me or do I constantly detect recurring themes or trends in the Honorverse Navies of blind dumb obedience to non intelligent orders that would result in the deaths of all?

The Haven attack on the Manitore home system comes to mind. Is it possible that the many ten thousands of Havenites knew their odds were very grim? And if so, why did they not express this fact?

Hundreds of years ago in the wood sailing ship navel era, disgrunted ratings would roll iron cannon balls across the various gun decks as a method of expressing their extreme displeasure.

How come in all the many excellent Honorverse novels, we never once, that I am aware, see any ball rolling? Not one chirp or word of dissatification from any crew from any navy? And why?

HB of CJ (old coot) Junior Captain. I love this excellent Forum!

As others said Beatrice had a good chance of working, and I'm sure was sold to the naval crews as such -- largest waller assault in history, etc, etc.

But back during Buttercup, when it was becoming clear how totally outclassed the Peep Navy was there were indications that the crews were very unhappy. (Or at least that State Sec and the government assumed they were and took actions to mitigate against the risk that they'd refuse to fight).
You don't attach extra political commissars, ready to kill you for refusing to fight, if your units are motivated and eager to fight.
Kind of indirect, but clearly hinting that without the threat of execution forcing them on a lot of the sailors would have refused to stick around for hopeless suicide missions (being MDM targets while only having SDMs)

Soldiers will take great risks to their own survival (see WWI for examples) if they feel that the reward (victory) or cost (defeat and enemy control/reprisals) is worth the risk.

The French Army didn't mutiny in 1917 because they wanted to surrender; they felt that their commanders were simply throwning their lives away instead of using them to achieve victory (note that few deserted; they held their lines against the Germans-they simply refused to make any more sucicidal attacks.

What would have happened to the PRH Navy if Theisman had't made his coup is...interesting speculation. But the RHN post-Thunderbolt felt that they had an opportunity to win, and were willing to lose thier lives to achieve that victory.

IMHO as always; YMMV.

HB of CJ wrote:Is it just me or do I constantly detect recurring themes or trends in the Honorverse Navies of blind dumb obedience to non intelligent orders that would result in the deaths of all?

[snip]

How come in all the many excellent Honorverse novels, we never once, that I am aware, see any ball rolling? Not one chirp or word of dissatification from any crew from any navy? And why?

We've seen plenty of Sollies who have qualms about their orders. They're obedient, but not blindly so. Some of them even raise objections.

HB of CJ (old coot) Junior Captain. I love this excellent Forum!

By the way, you need to update your sig, since you're no longer a Captain J.G.

Hutch wrote:Soldiers will take great risks to their own survival (see WWI for examples) if they feel that the reward (victory) or cost (defeat and enemy control/reprisals) is worth the risk.

The French Army didn't mutiny in 1917 because they wanted to surrender; they felt that their commanders were simply throwning their lives away instead of using them to achieve victory (note that few deserted; they held their lines against the Germans-they simply refused to make any more sucicidal attacks.

What would have happened to the PRH Navy if Theisman had't made his coup is...interesting speculation. But the RHN post-Thunderbolt felt that they had an opportunity to win, and were willing to lose thier lives to achieve that victory.

IMHO as always; YMMV.

One variable worth playing up more: trust in the leadership. No one in the RHN thought Tom Theisman, Eloise Pritchart, or Lester Tourville would be throwing away their lives on a lost cause or a stupid mission. (And they were right.)

Officers and crew in the Committee of Public Safety's navy certainly could think that, and the people's commissioners who were practically running the ships and fleets certainly had a lot more revolutionary fervor than professional naval skill or judgment.

Similarly, SLN officers and crew really cannot trust the Mandarins or Battle Fleet political admirals to be sending them into battle if and only if the risks justify the potential national reward. They've gotten away with it thus far only because (1) there's not enough collective identity aboard those ships for them to step up and mutiny effectively, but more to the point (2) the officers and crews are still wrapping their head around the force imbalance and that the League's inevitability is a myth on a foundation of sand.