Of pinnaces, gravity plates and detecting the spider drive.

OK, with the next book still far in the future (relatively speaking) I've been rereading the series. And in "Flag in Exile" I found this passage;

...they not only ran silent to avoid any betraying scrap of com chatter but killed every readily detectable system, even their internal grav plates...

It's talking about pinnaces and stealth and, apparently, how internal grav plates are a readily detectable system.

Don't spider drive ships use far larger and far more powerful internal grav plates? Wouldn't that make them readily detectable?

Belial666 wrote:OK, with the next book still far in the future (relatively speaking) I've been rereading the series. And in "Flag in Exile" I found this passage;

...they not only ran silent to avoid any betraying scrap of com chatter but killed every readily detectable system, even their internal grav plates...

That passage is from Field Of Dishonor not Flag in Exile.

It is also talking about systems that are detectable at Low Orbit distances, not about interplanetary distances or further. Pinnaces don't have the ECM/Stealth ability of a Ghost or Shark class spider-drive warship. Presumably the Lenny Dets will have comparable or better ECM/Stealth than the Sharks and Ghosts.

As I've said before, the best chance of detecting a Spider Drive in operation is FTL Communications tech -- both interact with the "Alpha Wall" in N-space (or next higher wall in hyperspace.)

Personally I think it's going to be a moot issue, because the spider drive ships are ambush weapons, and don't have either a wedge or gravitic sidewalls to protect them, nor are they fast.
So it takes one Mistletoe drone apiece, and buh-bye. Granted, the spider drive is sort of like having the world's most powerful "archery bow", but you have to sneak into range of the other army's shotgun bearing masses to use it.

IIRC, as of PD1922, apparently the LennyDet class SD's are still on the design boards as well, so Detweiler and Co. know that they've got fatal defensive problems with those ships. which in turn means... (IMNSHO)

One of the text bits about the Mesan frustrations that no matter what they've done so far, the RMN tech edge has accelerated faster on a ship-per-ship basis and that NO MAlign ship of equal size is ready to go toe-to-toe. So I don't think the MAlign arsenal/bolthole location of Darius is surrounded by shoals of LennyDets getting ready to go into action.

The LennyDets don't give the RF systems any advantage, only massive quantities of the best ships in all classes do that, and that means MDM firing SD(P)s Cruisers with DDMs, CLACs, etc.; the same force mix that the GA has in abundance.

Likely that makes the LennyDets shipyard targeting platforms at best. The MAlign has to hope that the Haven Sector vs SLN wars last long enough to eat each other's fleets in the mean time.

Weird Harold wrote:It is also talking about systems that are detectable at Low Orbit distances, not about interplanetary distances or further. Pinnaces don't have the ECM/Stealth ability of a Ghost or Shark class spider-drive warship. Presumably the Lenny Dets will have comparable or better ECM/Stealth than the Sharks and Ghosts.

As I've said before, the best chance of detecting a Spider Drive in operation is FTL Communications tech -- both interact with the "Alpha Wall" in N-space (or next higher wall in hyperspace.)

Still - detectable at low orbit distances, unless and until something that can detect that spider drive operation is developed - may beat trying to detect it through EM reflections, given the smart stealth paint.

I agree about that best chance, mind you. But when you have to cross your fingers for the best chance, you may as well cross your fingers for any others you can count on the remaining fingers too.

Gah, my mistake on the book title. Was too excited about potential ramifications when posting.





Dunno about disregarding the danger posed by a well-built spider drive ship though. If it was me, I'd build the spider-SD with a couple hudred torpedo-sized spider-escorts loaded with point defense. Any drones get close enough would get shot by PDLCs or countermissiles that wouldn't even come from the main ship so you couldn't localize it from them. And if the worst happens and the spider-SD has to duke it out with normal SDs, it shuts down its drive, raises bubble sidewall, locks onto the torps with tractors exactly the same way normal-SD locks on to its keyholes, and fights on even footing.
It might lack the wedge's protection and huge acceleration but has an even stronger sidewall, more broadside surface, no wedge interference for sensors and control links, can't be locked onto from further than a couple million clicks at best and lacks the vulnerable unarmored alpha rings of normal SDs.

And that's without any of the tricks the Alignment could have developed that we don't know about.

Weird Harold wrote:...snip not addressing..

As I've said before, the best chance of detecting a Spider Drive in operation is FTL Communications tech -- both interact with the "Alpha Wall" in N-space (or next higher wall in hyperspace.)

I agree that grav plates are going to be a very short range ie orbital distance.

Don't know if I have posted this before or recently. If I have my apologies.

Bold is my emphasis. This is from an info dump section. Not even in some one's thoughts.

MoH Chapter 28 wrote:No single beam would have been of any particular use. Powerful as it might be, it was less than a shadow compared to the output of even a single one of any starship’s beta nodes, far less an alpha node. It wasn’t even enough to produce the “ripple” along the hyper-space wall which Manticore used for its FTL communications technology. But it did lock onto the wall, and that provided the ship which mounted it a purchase point in deep space—one which was always available, anywhere, in any direction. And when dozens of those beams were combined, reaching out, locking onto the alpha wall and pulling in micro-spaced bursts, they produced something that was very useful, indeed.

Not saying it is impossible that what you propose will happen. But if it doesn't even produce a ripple I think that is a long row to hoe.

Have fun,
T2M

JeffEngel wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:It is also talking about systems that are detectable at Low Orbit distances, not about interplanetary distances or further. Pinnaces don't have the ECM/Stealth ability of a Ghost or Shark class spider-drive warship. Presumably the Lenny Dets will have comparable or better ECM/Stealth than the Sharks and Ghosts.

As I've said before, the best chance of detecting a Spider Drive in operation is FTL Communications tech -- both interact with the "Alpha Wall" in N-space (or next higher wall in hyperspace.)

Still - detectable at low orbit distances, unless and until something that can detect that spider drive operation is developed - may beat trying to detect it through EM reflections, given the smart stealth paint.

I agree about that best chance, mind you. But when you have to cross your fingers for the best chance, you may as well cross your fingers for any others you can count on the remaining fingers too.

Low orbit distances is on the order of hundreds of kilometers, not hundreds of thousands of kilometers. Are you really suggesting trying to get a detector within 0.001 light-seconds in order to detect the grav plates on a spider ship? Good luck with that!

SharkHunter wrote:
IIRC, as of PD1922, apparently the LennyDet class SD's are still on the design boards as well, so Detweiler and Co. know that they've got fatal defensive problems with those ships. which in turn means... (IMNSHO)

{Snip}

Huh ?

Lenny Dets are under construction ar Darius, and over 50% complete as of the OB strike. They are definite NOT still just on the drawing board.

WE all think they have major defensive issues. I not certain the MAN feels the same way, or else they wouldn't be building bunches of them.

Depends on how competent the MAN is. One of the things I don't like about the Honorverse is how comparatively incompetent every opponent is against the protagonists that they need to hugely outnumber them to ever be a threat. Would be a nice change for them to have to struggle a bit, for once.

JeffEngel wrote:Still - detectable at low orbit distances, unless and until something that can detect that spider drive operation is developed - may beat trying to detect it through EM reflections, given the smart stealth paint.

I agree about that best chance, mind you. But when you have to cross your fingers for the best chance, you may as well cross your fingers for any others you can count on the remaining fingers too.

Might just be noticeable at those distances because you have to, say, run the fusion plant to drive any of the grav-systems, and that wouldn't be all that subtle a signal in something as small as a pinnace. Lots more room to play tricks with shielding and heat in something the footprint of a big airport (SD) than something the size of an airliner (pinnace)

In other words, running the grav plates might not have directly produced any type of signal - running them might just cause secondary signals which would be easier to hide or mask in a full up ship (even at those point blank distances)


But still, it's an interesting quote Belial666 tossed out for consideration.