Breaking the "sprawl"

We've assumed that the Grand Alliance needs to break the SL into quite a few successor states, but... thinking about the "galactic map" in terms of PD 1922, with the assumption that the "spheres" represented by the Solarian League are somewhat "equal population" by quadrant, maybe with some weight towards the Haven Quadrant because of the influence of Manticore's wormhole junction, etc.

Let's assume that Laccoon II gives the RMN/GA the interior lines , aka they can already pretty much slice the pie in terms of "their side of the sphere. They might even have some really good "island nodes" on the far side of the pie, as soon as they build nodal wormhole defenses.

In essence I'm wondering if the "western side" of the SL has already been pretty much carved up into a bunch of Silesia size chunks except that FF/BF have more obsolete ships, and the Mandarins/SLN just don't realize it yet.

It's not like the politicians "voting on old Earth" in general automatically means that system X can do diddly poop to affect a strong RMN nodal force. That would be like saying that Washington DC would be able to bluster and threaten California with any sort of useful political club if the in-place military forces on the West Coast said, "ny-ope, sorry!"

Then there's the "local GA admiral" with authority to cut mutual defense deals with that SDF in terms of "you run your shop honest and don't mess with the best"... spacio/political realities.

Thoughts?

SharkHunter, it's probably me (nah, it's you... ), but that OP was a bit hard to wade through, albeit that it didn't stop me from replying anyway....

You seem to be talking about the systems on "the other side" of the SL from the Haven Sector, and it is quite true we haven't seen much of their political or economic makeup (hey, it's been sort of...interesting...over in the Haven Sector these last 20-30 years.

It is an interesting point that the area out towards Haven will be more organized and in better economic shape due to (1) The original Republic of Haven, which did start out as being the 'bright shining light' in may yet become again and (2) the Manticore wormhole discovery, which opened vast tracts out that way to ships and settlements.

It may be that we will meet Verge systems 'out there' that have organized like Haven (or even Talbott and Silesia) for their 'greater good', but I believe RFC has said that there is nothing else out there comparable to the haven Sector (it might have been in one of the pearls, if somebody else remembers).

Otherwise, I thing the organization (Verge, Protectorates, Shell, Core) probably apply and the treatment by OFS/FF are approximatley the same as they have been in the Secotrs we have seen. And that the Verge systems are, in general, divided into two types (1) those dominated by Interstellars who have OFS/FF on speed-dial and are resigned to becoming SL vassals and (2) those that are independent but can see the SL juggernaut coming 50-100 T-years down the road.

What happens when that threat starts to go away will be....interesting.

And yes, GA ships 'out there' will, even with wormhole transists, will be at the long end of a supply line and will be looking for 'friends' pretty quickly.

Could get a bit hairy out there...maybe even furry.

We shall see...or not (after all, there are at least 4,000 'civilized' worlds (that is, have hyperdrive and most of the 'modern' stuff (or at least know about it), +1B inhabitants, and contact with the rest of known space)
and each and every one of them will have a slightly different story. If the top 50 posters here each wrote 5 pages for 80 systems each about the "Great War", you'd have 50 400-page books and it still wouldn't come close to telling the tale.

So we'll have to take the bits RFC offers us come 2016 and hope that they give us enough to extrapolate intelligently on....since we're going to extrapolate on it anyway...

Hmmm, Hutch, you got me thinking even more about the "side of space that Manticoran shipping dominated at least until Laccoon 1 & 2. We're told that the "Transtellars" in the SL tend to be very malignant, completely capitalistic and corrupt entities... So what is a TranStellar to do nowadays if they can't ship their goods? i.e. ithout the "RMMC bottoms", I wonder if 'those emperors now have no clothes either'.

If that's the case, in my mind at least, that would also seem to make the Manticoran shippers a little bit complicit in the current state of affairs in the SL / Verge / Protectorates For example, obviously (Shadow of Freedom spoiler) things weren't exactly hunky dory in Saltash before the character we refer to as "dumb-a$$ Damian got the bright idea to "quarantine" the Manticoran ships. Not that the Star Kingdom had much say or choice, by the way -- until Pritchart et. al decided to play nice, the SL was the far-away devils we have to sup with vs. Haven, the nearby demon trying to eat us up.

But in post-PD1922... did the GA just become the Honorverse's equivalent of what prior US generations would have called "the Arsenal of Democracy"?

SharkHunter wrote:Hmmm, Hutch, you got me thinking even more about the "side of space that Manticoran shipping dominated at least until Laccoon 1 & 2. We're told that the "Transtellars" in the SL tend to be very malignant, completely capitalistic and corrupt entities... So what is a TranStellar to do nowadays if they can't ship their goods? i.e. ithout the "RMMC bottoms", I wonder if 'those emperors now have no clothes either'.

If that's the case, in my mind at least, that would also seem to make the Manticoran shippers a little bit complicit in the current state of affairs in the SL / Verge / Protectorates For example, obviously (Shadow of Freedom spoiler) things weren't exactly hunky dory in Saltash before the character we refer to as "dumb-a$$ Damian got the bright idea to "quarantine" the Manticoran ships. Not that the Star Kingdom had much say or choice, by the way -- until Pritchart et. al decided to play nice, the SL was the far-away devils we have to sup with vs. Haven, the nearby demon trying to eat us up.

But in post-PD1922... did the GA just become the Honorverse's equivalent of what prior US generations would have called "the Arsenal of Democracy"?

Two points to consider. First, I think you have a mistaken understanding of the "side of space that Manticoran shipping dominated." The text actually tells us that the wormhole network gave Manticore easy access to 2/3 of the periphery of the Solarian League, plus the heart of the League. If I recall correctly, the Lynx terminus increased that to 3/4 of the periphery. Manticore's influence was not limited to one side of the League.

The other point I wanted to mention is that Manticore did not necessarily carry those Solarian shipments for their entire route. The text says only that a large percentage of Solarian trade spent part of their trip on Manticoran hulls. It is common for shipments to be sent to regional centers and transferred to other ships. A shipment might pass through several ships before reaching its final destination.

--snipping, replying for brevity--

SWM wrote:Two points to consider. First, I think you have a mistaken understanding of the "side of space that Manticoran shipping dominated." The text actually tells us that the wormhole network gave Manticore easy access to 2/3 of the periphery of the Solarian League, plus the heart of the League. If I recall correctly, the Lynx terminus increased that to 3/4 of the periphery. Manticore's influence was not limited to one side of the League.

Correct, though the Lynx terminus is so recent that I doubt much shipping has started to move that way yet, especially because of Laccoon. In my head the "2/3" resembles "8% past the 50% line on two both sides", a bit.

SWM wrote: The other point I wanted to mention is that Manticore did not necessarily carry those Solarian shipments for their entire route. The text says only that a large percentage of Solarian trade spent part of their trip on Manticoran hulls. It is common for shipments to be sent to regional centers and transferred to other ships. A shipment might pass through several ships before reaching its final destination.

Also correct. What I'm wondering/theorizing about is if all of those "trip interruptions" are going to tear the more corrupt Transtellars into lesser pieces as well as the League itself, sort of how the western wet-sea navies eventually obsoleted the various "_______ India" companies.

The Lynx terminus is only beginning to draw shipping, but Manticore's political and military presence out there is certainly running strong and fast. Apart from Beowulf, it's the terminus that's most in Solarian turf; the others tend to run around the outside of the Solarian sphere, with the real "wraparound" effect likely from indirect connections.

Given the pace of 10th Fleet's operations and the cheerful initiative every official and officer Manticore sends that way take, the SLN, OFS and dominant transtellars out that way are getting taken apart faster than any commerce raiding suggestions coming from Old Chicago are going to annoy Manticore.

So you've got the League falling apart with protectorates falling away from Meyers outward, and Core Worlds ducking out starting with Beowulf.

--snipping--

JeffEngel wrote:Given the pace of 10th Fleet's operations and the cheerful initiative every official and officer Manticore sends that way take, the SLN, OFS and dominant transtellars out that way are getting taken apart faster than any commerce raiding suggestions coming from Old Chicago are going to annoy Manticore.

Cheerful initiatives! couldn't think a better way to describe it myself.... AKA I'm still laughing -- you get my unofficial and largely unimportant but VOTE FOR THE FUNNIEST POST OF THE DAY.

Though I do think it should be a requirement that Abigail and Mateo get to deliver the good word to those Sollies who need it further explained to them in simpler Anglais.

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping, replying for brevity--

SWM wrote:Two points to consider. First, I think you have a mistaken understanding of the "side of space that Manticoran shipping dominated." The text actually tells us that the wormhole network gave Manticore easy access to 2/3 of the periphery of the Solarian League, plus the heart of the League. If I recall correctly, the Lynx terminus increased that to 3/4 of the periphery. Manticore's influence was not limited to one side of the League.

Correct, though the Lynx terminus is so recent that I doubt much shipping has started to move that way yet, especially because of Laccoon. In my head the "2/3" resembles "8% past the 50% line on two both sides", a bit.

If you view it that way, then the remainder resembles 16% on either side of the opposite point. Chopping it up like that obfuscates the facts.

But in any case, it is more likely that the 2/3 was not a continuous arc, but a set of broken arcs, centered around the termini indirectly linked to the Manticore Wormhole Junction. The Sasebo terminus, for instance, is pretty far around the periphery from Manticore, giving access to a large segment reaching almost to the opposite point from Manticore. Sasebo is separated from Manticore by a few wormhole transits and a mere 25 light-years in the Phoenix Cluster. So Manticore's economic reach is not split into two sides, but into pieces all around the periphery.

there's a sphere around each terminus where its faster to go thru the junction then direct. This is what make the penetration so large. depending on where your going that sphere could be hundreds of LY in diameter

Hasek wrote:there's a sphere around each terminus where its faster to go thru the junction then direct. This is what make the penetration so large. depending on where your going that sphere could be hundreds of LY in diameter

Not hundreds of LY -- I think our figures are that the entire Honorverse to date fits well within what, 1400 LY or so, and the League + Verge towards Manticore 60% that. Still, I think y'all are right that the "periphery" exists as a series of bubbles around the wormhole junctions where the MWJ or related/proximal junctions have enabled the RMMC freighters to be dominant.