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Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM... | |
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SharkHunter
Posts: 1608
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Likely I'm committing forum seppuku again, but here goes with another "tactical wrinkle" idea: Why put the ACM into a pod at all? (though some 23E-armed pods can obviously be retained).
Instead, make the dang thing available as a tube launched proposition and make it possible for ALL RMN/GA missiles to slave to their assigned control missile. For example, let's say that you use the ACM to update 3 pods times 10 Mark-23 attack missiles instead of 1x8. Or 3 pods times 14 Mark-16Gs, or if we decide that there's a way to do it while the RMN yards are retooling, an extended range CM/Cataphract-ish two stage missile. Yea/nay whatch-y'all think? ---------------------
All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all |
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM... | |
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SWM
Posts: 5928
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It's been suggested before. The biggest problem, of course, is that it requires a tube twice the size of an attack missile. There have been arguments here before about whether it is practical to put ACMs in broadside tubes (I don't recall any argument about chaser tubes). But I think you are overestimating the capacity of the Apollo attack missile. I don't think it has enough control links to manage 30 missiles. I think it only has 8. Are you talking about a new model of ACM with more control links? Another problem is that putting 30 missiles together in a clump makes an easier target for point defense than 8 missiles in a clump. It also makes for less flexible targeting, since all the missiles controlled by an ACM are going for the same target from the same aspect angle. But there have been previous arguments in favor of the flexibility permitted by having ACMs tube launched. The topic came up in past discussions about the future of tube wallers versus pod wallers. --------------------------------------------
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM... | |
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Somtaaw
Posts: 1204
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Another point to consider is that by putting ACMs into ship-mounts, it eats into attack missile storage much more heavily than loading EW birds does. For every ACM you try to fire internally, you're going to lose at least two or more real missiles.
The other minor point, would be that any ship that's firing ACMs from tubes is either: a) fairly useless after the first salvos, unless it's a podlayer b) if its not a podlayer, but the division/squadronmate podlayer dies, you are now a ship stuffed full of ACM that can't hurt the enemy that already took out your division or squadronmate. |
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM... | |
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JeffEngel
Posts: 2074
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Any consideration of, say, tractoring them to the hull like small missile pods or launching them from the boat bay like recon drones? |
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM... | |
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Somtaaw
Posts: 1204
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If you keep ACM's tractored to the hull, you're back to the original reason why missile pods disappeared. Without mass drivers to provide that initial thrust, old-style pods were simply incapable of giving missiles enough thrust to keep up with missiles launched from ship mass drivers. You'd have to step your missiles from both tubes and pods down to "less than optimal" acceleration just so tractored ACMs could keep up and control the salvo. |
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM... | |
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JeffEngel
Posts: 2074
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Since then, missile acceleration has rendered the initial velocity from the mass drivers negligible for giving them a useful acceleration toward the target. It's just for clearing the wedge. Boat bay or surface tractor beams might deliver that. So might a disposable thruster pack attached to the missile, and a combination of the two can do nicely. |
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM... | |
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Somtaaw
Posts: 1204
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Perhaps you are right, but I don't believe missiles have nearly enough acceleration to make up for a "cold start" you could call it. Mass drivers give the missile a running start, even if the ship firing is lying doggo, like in For the Honor of the Queen, the deep space ambush with Theisman and Yu not even using their wedges. Without the Masadan's luring the Grayson fleet + Madrigal into practically energy range, they never would have been able to get even their mass driver launched missiles into range. And the early RMN pods never would have been used at all, if Sonja Hemphill hadn't personally driven the research to make mass driver launchers for the LAC's. And even she fought against those launchers being used in pods, initially anyways. |
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM... | |
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Jonathan_S
Posts: 8976
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MDM's even at half power (for max range) have 46,000 gravities of acceleration! And now a 9 minute powered flight time (with terminal velocities a good fraction of the speed of light) It's pretty trivial to pre-calculate how to stagger the wedge startups, and alter the run times, to pull the MDM's back into sync even if they had significantly different initial velocities. (Oddly, even for single drive missiles when we were told that launchers provided critical acceleration that acceleration didn't seem to actually show up in the numbers provided for missile acceleration vs terminal velocity or range during combat; oops) |
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM... | |
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Somtaaw
Posts: 1204
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ACM's badly need to stay with the missiles they are controlling though. Otherwise you could more easily detect, and potentially destroy (or mission kill) it. Without the mass driver letting it keep up with its sister missiles, it will be very easy to detect. IIRC, even Haven wasn't totally sure how Manticore created Apollo, they just knew it was going to be really bad news when it hit general service.
Yes it is fairly trivial to get various launches to sync up, nobody ever did it, before or after pods were developed. The closest I think they have ever come to syncing salvo's landing, is when Webster was commanding Home Fleet in Battle of Manticore, and he used Avalanche fireplan, to create a constant stream of missiles instead of using the more traditional hammer salvo's. |
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Re: Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM... | |
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SharkHunter
Posts: 1608
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--snipping--
In reverse order: ...the 30 in a clump (or 42 if it were controlling 3 pods worth of Mark-16's. My reading is that the missiles essentially maintain "formation" covering the ACM until just short of attack range. Likely they'd disperse before coming into even extended CM range, so as to get the maximum number of angles to hit the ship with. If an ACM could guide 'three clumps' then (by example) you could have 8 ACMs targeting one op-force SD(p) but you'd gain an additional 40ish shipkillers in the process, and twice the number of Dazzler/Dragons teeth. (2 more missiles at 10 missiles per pod instead of 8 x 24 pods less ECM). The additional ECW/Pen aids force the op force CM fire into "hit what? mode twice as badly) ...Control channel wise: I think it has 8 because it was designed one missile per pod. If it were even an issue other than that, up until about 20 seconds short of an op-force, rotating links would accomplish that much, then the ECM says "disperse thusly". If a ship can do it, seems likely that an ACM should be able to pass on the commands equally well. ...Synching up in space would be a "timed fire" operation to that the grav driver spitting out the ACM (likely out of forward or chaser tubes) would match "it's POD missiles" within a small enough milliseconds range to get the job done. ...I can also see a design (in my head) where the Keyhole of one SD(p) could continue to fire and control the ACMs of a squadron mate/group even if it's run dry, or from the pods launched by Sag-C(s), Aggie, or Nike(s). The "synch up" from the launch point would be more complex but give them a million or so kilometers to do the synching, etc.. ...Finally yes, the ACM tube size would be pretty big. But your pods would gain 2 for 1, and in essence "space is space is space", by which I mean either you have 1000+ Apollo missiles in 1000 pods+, and lose 2000 attack missiles, or have a lesser count tube fired, and get those 2000 back, or maybe even more attack/ECM birds if the SD(p) were loaded with Mark-16G's for a specific battle. Plus the "synching with other pod-launched missiles from other ships, etc." makes your offensive power even more tightly controllable. Keep in mind, this isn't a tube launch from an existing ship, it's a newer design than the Invictus, designed to take advantage of lessons learned up to now. Thoughts? ---------------------
All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all |
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