Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Robert_A_Woodward and 28 guests

Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by n7axw   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:04 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5997
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

A bit earlier this evening, I was browsing through "The Enemy in Extended Space: SLN or MAlign" thread where the question came up as to whether or not the LDs were podlayers. At least some of the posters throught not. But having reread Storm from the Shadows recently, I didn't think that was quite right. So I poked around and found the textev that seems to me to demonstrate that the LDs are indeed podlayers, although the quote below is refering to the Sharks rather than the LDs. However, since the Shark is a prototype for the LD, it stands to reason that what is true of the Shark would also be true of the LD.

Also, since there has been some confusion about whether or not the LDs have impeller drive, the textev cited below demonstrates that they do not have a wedge or impeller drive. I fimd myself wondering how they move in n space.

**********

Here is the quote SftS, chapter 40

"The Shark-class ships were much larger than Commodore Ostby’s and Commodore Sung’s Scouts. Any pod layer had to be, although these were still essentially prototype units in many ways, and they had only twenty-eight of them, divided betweedn Admiral Topolev’s Task Force One and Admiral Colenso’s much smaller Task Force Two. Substantially larger units with far more magazine space were on the drawing board, designs based in no small part on the experience Benjamin and his crews had acquired working with the ships under Topolov’s and Colenso’s command. Some of those larger units were already entering the firs phases of construction, for that matter. And again, Albrecht wished they’d been able to wait until those larger ships were available in greater numbers. But the key to everything was timing, and the two admrals had enough combat power for their assigned mission.

Albrecht wasn’t the military specialist Benjamin was, but even he could tell the Sharks looked subtly wrong. They were too far away for the naked eye to see, but the view screen’s magnification brought them to what seemed like arm-length and made it obvious that all of them lacked the traditional “hammerhead design of a military starship. Indeed the lines of their hulls were all wrong, in one way or another, as if their designers had been working to a completely different set of constraints from anyone else in the galaxy.

Which was precisely what they had been doing.

The strike ships turned slowly, and then, as one unit, they went loping away into the trackless depths of space. And that, too, was wrong. The light warping power of a starship’s impeller drive made the ship within it impossible to see, except from exactly the right angle. But there was no gravitic distortion around these ships, nothing to bend and blur light waves, because they didn’t use impeller wedges."

Discuss away...

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:06 am

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4478
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

n7axw wrote:... the textev cited below demonstrates that they do not have a wedge or impeller drive. I find myself wondering how they move in n space.

***

Here is the quote SftS, chapter 40

...


They move in N-Space with the Spider Drive -- it's why they don't have/need hammerheads as three keels instead of one.

RFC has said they can travel through wormholes, and that means they also mount Warshawski Sails (alpha nodes) but outside of wormholes and Grav waves, they move by tractoring the alpha (or presumably the next higher) hyper wall.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by SWM   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:12 am

SWM
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5928
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: U.S. east coast

n7axw wrote:A bit earlier this evening, I was browsing through "The Enemy in Extended Space: SLN or MAlign" thread where the question came up as to whether or not the LDs were podlayers. At least some of the posters throught not. But having reread Storm from the Shadows recently, I didn't think that was quite right. So I poked around and found the textev that seems to me to demonstrate that the LDs are indeed podlayers, although the quote below is refering to the Sharks rather than the LDs. However, since the Shark is a prototype for the LD, it stands to reason that what is true of the Shark would also be true of the LD.

Also, since there has been some confusion about whether or not the LDs have impeller drive, the textev cited below demonstrates that they do not have a wedge or impeller drive. I fimd myself wondering how they move in n space.

Excellent. I think it is fairly good evidence that the Detweilers are podlayers, though not absolute confirmation. Thanks for finding it!

As for how the Sharks and Detweilers move in N space, that is the Spider drive, of course. We did not learn the name of the drive until later text. The question people had been asking, though, was whether the Sharks and Detweilers have both spider drive and impeller drive, which they can switch between. I feel that David's infodumps make it pretty clear that they don't, but some are not convinced.
--------------------------------------------
Librarian: The Original Search Engine
Top
Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by Vince   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:21 am

Vince
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1574
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:43 pm

n7axw wrote:A bit earlier this evening, I was browsing through "The Enemy in Extended Space: SLN or MAlign" thread where the question came up as to whether or not the LDs were podlayers. At least some of the posters throught not. But having reread Storm from the Shadows recently, I didn't think that was quite right. So I poked around and found the textev that seems to me to demonstrate that the LDs are indeed podlayers, although the quote below is refering to the Sharks rather than the LDs. However, since the Shark is a prototype for the LD, it stands to reason that what is true of the Shark would also be true of the LD.

Also, since there has been some confusion about whether or not the LDs have impeller drive, the textev cited below demonstrates that they do not have a wedge or impeller drive. I fimd myself wondering how they move in n space.

**********

Here is the quote SftS, chapter 40

"The Shark-class ships were much larger than Commodore Ostby’s and Commodore Sung’s Scouts. Any pod layer had to be, although these were still essentially prototype units in many ways, and they had only twenty-eight of them, divided betweedn Admiral Topolev’s Task Force One and Admiral Colenso’s much smaller Task Force Two. Substantially larger units with far more magazine space were on the drawing board, designs based in no small part on the experience Benjamin and his crews had acquired working with the ships under Topolov’s and Colenso’s command. Some of those larger units were already entering the firs phases of construction, for that matter. And again, Albrecht wished they’d been able to wait until those larger ships were available in greater numbers. But the key to everything was timing, and the two admrals had enough combat power for their assigned mission.

Albrecht wasn’t the military specialist Benjamin was, but even he could tell the Sharks looked subtly wrong. They were too far away for the naked eye to see, but the view screen’s magnification brought them to what seemed like arm-length and made it obvious that all of them lacked the traditional “hammerhead design of a military starship. Indeed the lines of their hulls were all wrong, in one way or another, as if their designers had been working to a completely different set of constraints from anyone else in the galaxy.

Which was precisely what they had been doing.

The strike ships turned slowly, and then, as one unit, they went loping away into the trackless depths of space. And that, too, was wrong. The light warping power of a starship’s impeller drive made the ship within it impossible to see, except from exactly the right angle. But there was no gravitic distortion around these ships, nothing to bend and blur light waves, because they didn’t use impeller wedges."

Discuss away...

Don

How a spider drive ship maneuvers when in normal space, and in hyper space but not in a gravity wave:
Mission of Honor, Chapter 28 wrote:The ships which had mounted Oyster Bay, however, represented a radical departure from anything the galaxy had previously seen which was just as impressive, in its own way, as anything Manticore had accomplished. They weren’t a particularly graceful departure, of course. In fact, compared to any impeller-drive ship, they were squat, stumpy, and downright peculiar looking because, unlike the gravitic drives everyone else used, the spider generated no impeller wedge. Instead of using two inclined planes of focused gravity to create bands of stressed space around the pocket of normal-space which surrounded a ship, the spider used literally dozens of nodes to project spurs or spikes of intensely focused gravity. For all intents and purposes, each of those spurs was almost like generating a tractor or a presser beam, except that no one in his right mind had ever imagined tractors or pressers that powerful. In fact, at a sufficiently short range, they would have made quite serviceable energy weapons, because these focused, directional beams were powerful enough to create their own tiny foci—effectively, holes in the “real” universe—in which space itself was so highly stressed that the beams punched clear through to the alpha wall, the interface between normal-space and hyper-space.
No single beam would have been of any particular use. Powerful as it might be, it was less than a shadow compared to the output of even a single one of any starship’s beta nodes, far less an alpha node. It wasn’t even enough to produce the “ripple” along the hyper-space wall which Manticore used for its FTL communications technology. But it did lock onto the wall, and that provided the ship which mounted it a purchase point in deep space—one which was always available, anywhere, in any direction. And when dozens of those beams were combined, reaching out, locking onto the alpha wall and pulling in micro-spaced bursts, they produced something that was very useful, indeed.
The maximum acceleration the new technology could theoretically have attained was vastly lower than the acceleration theoretically attainable under impeller drive. After all, in theory an impeller wedge could be accelerated instantaneously to the speed of light. There were, however, a few shortcomings to that sort of acceleration, which was why theoretical acceleration rates had always been of far less interest to practical ship designers than the maximum rates which could be compensated for with sufficient efficiency to allow mere humans to survive without being turned into extremely thin layers of paste on the bulkheads.
And in that respect, even the spider drive’s lower theoretical maximum acceleration presented a definite challenge, given the fact that it produced no impeller wedge. Without a wedge, it also produced no convenient “sump” for an inertial compensator, and that meant the maximum survivable normal-space acceleration for a spider drive-equipped ship was limited by the ability of currently available grav plate technology to offset the consequences of acceleration. Unfortunately, grav plates were far less capable in that respect than inertial compensators, which had an inevitable effect on the maximum accleration a spider-drive ship could attain. It also meant that unlike impeller-drive vessels, a spider-drive ship’s decks had to be aligned perpendicular to its axis of movement rather than parallel, which was a large part of what produced its shorter, “squatter” hull form, not to mention requiring some significant rethinks about the way spacecraft designers had been arranging ship interiors literally for centuries.
Italics are the author's.

When a spider ship is in hyper space and not in a gravity wave, the spider's tractor beams lock onto the wall of the next higher hyper band.
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
Top
Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by Valen123456   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:04 am

Valen123456
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:27 am

Its also an interesting thought that the Spider Ships are likely equipped with a Streak hyper-drive. Whilst (as the quotes above show) they can only accelerate in the same league as merchant vessels while in Normal Space, its likely that they can reach much higher (and so higher velocity) hyper-bands than anyone else. How much this counters their overly long acceleration times I cannot be sure, but it is an odd thought that these ships can be stumpy and sluggish in N-Space and yet zip along faster than anything else while in Hyper.

Regarding the spiders capabilities in hyperspace I do not believe we have any statements on that anywhere, but i would not be surprised if they have an "Alpha 0nly" ring that they use to create a Warshawski sail while in hyper.
Top
Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by munroburton   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:16 am

munroburton
Admiral

Posts: 2375
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

I was wondering what happens when a spider ship gets into the kappa band of hyperspace, the highest one accessible by the "streak drive". Does its tractors then fix onto the lambda band?

Valen123456 wrote:Its also an interesting thought that the Spider Ships are likely equipped with a Streak hyper-drive. Whilst (as the quotes above show) they can only accelerate in the same league as merchant vessels while in Normal Space, its likely that they can reach much higher (and so higher velocity) hyper-bands than anyone else. How much this counters their overly long acceleration times I cannot be sure, but it is an odd thought that these ships can be stumpy and sluggish in N-Space and yet zip along faster than anything else while in Hyper.


The reason merchies don't have higher accelerating drives is because even at a lowly 150g, it only takes a few hours to reach the maximum velocity in any given band(or n-space, come to it). A few hours' difference doesn't make a substantial impact to a voyage that takes ten or more days.

The motor vehicle analogy are highways - this car might do 0-60 in 3 seconds and that car does it in 18, but if they aren't allowed to go faster than 60(yes, I'm aware a legal limit is not a physical limit), the first car thus only gains a lead of 15 seconds. Not very much for a journey of 20 miles, which should take approximately 20 minutes for both vehicles to complete.

Curious that merchants don't bother with 'military' level hyper generators, though. Being able to travel up to 40% faster would mean significantly more tons of cargo moved over any given time.
Top
Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by Kizarvexis   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:43 am

Kizarvexis
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:18 pm

munroburton wrote:I was wondering what happens when a spider ship gets into the kappa band of hyperspace, the highest one accessible by the "streak drive". Does its tractors then fix onto the lambda band?

Valen123456 wrote:Its also an interesting thought that the Spider Ships are likely equipped with a Streak hyper-drive. Whilst (as the quotes above show) they can only accelerate in the same league as merchant vessels while in Normal Space, its likely that they can reach much higher (and so higher velocity) hyper-bands than anyone else. How much this counters their overly long acceleration times I cannot be sure, but it is an odd thought that these ships can be stumpy and sluggish in N-Space and yet zip along faster than anything else while in Hyper.


The reason merchies don't have higher accelerating drives is because even at a lowly 150g, it only takes a few hours to reach the maximum velocity in any given band(or n-space, come to it). A few hours' difference doesn't make a substantial impact to a voyage that takes ten or more days.

The motor vehicle analogy are highways - this car might do 0-60 in 3 seconds and that car does it in 18, but if they aren't allowed to go faster than 60(yes, I'm aware a legal limit is not a physical limit), the first car thus only gains a lead of 15 seconds. Not very much for a journey of 20 miles, which should take approximately 20 minutes for both vehicles to complete.

Curious that merchants don't bother with 'military' level hyper generators, though. Being able to travel up to 40% faster would mean significantly more tons of cargo moved over any given time.


Some merchants do for fast and time sensitive cargoes and couriers use military hyper drives. I believe the reason that they all do not use them is the fact that the 'military' hyper drives are more costly to install and maintain, so are not economical for all merchants.
Top
Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by JeffEngel   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:44 pm

JeffEngel
Admiral

Posts: 2074
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:06 pm

Kizarvexis wrote:
munroburton wrote:Curious that merchants don't bother with 'military' level hyper generators, though. Being able to travel up to 40% faster would mean significantly more tons of cargo moved over any given time.


Some merchants do for fast and time sensitive cargoes and couriers use military hyper drives. I believe the reason that they all do not use them is the fact that the 'military' hyper drives are more costly to install and maintain, so are not economical for all merchants.

I believe a post from RFC has mentioned that various combinations of "military" grade compensators, hypergenerators, and particle shielding are all to be found among various merchant ships (read: unarmed, privately-owned starships). It'll all depend on what the ship is built for and what capabilities are worth the initial cost and upkeep for the purpose and possible threats.
Top
Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by kzt   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:58 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11360
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

munroburton wrote:Curious that merchants don't bother with 'military' level hyper generators, though. Being able to travel up to 40% faster would mean significantly more tons of cargo moved over any given time.

The explanation is that these are much more expensive to buy, require significantly more maintenance (which means more crewmen), and require other upgrades to other ship systems. I tend to find this less than convincing, as a 40% speed increase is roughly the same as having 40% more ships. As the operating costs are portrayed as fairly low, the governing costs would be the bank note on the ship. So unless the hyperdrive upgrade costs something like >50% of the cost of the entire ship (really?) it seems like a money maker.

Economics isn't the strongest point of the Honorverse.
Top
Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by n7axw   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:35 pm

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5997
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

Thanks to Vince for that quote from Mission of Honor. It was a quite a bit more comprehensive than the one I offered from SftS...

Also thanks to you guys who responded to my question. I may well have a defective picture of how this works. So let me try again with my question. We know that the spider grabs the hyper wall which would be the alpha wall in n space.

But what happens when the ship moves away from the hyper wall to move toward a planet? How far away from the hyper wall can a ship get for the spider and still be able to reach and grab?

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top

Return to Honorverse