Apollo Counter.

Does it seem unreasonable that Solarian/Mesan efforts to reduce Grand Alliance missile capabilities would revolve around defeating the control missiles? It seems that until they can figure out MDM tech that their only chance would be to destroy the control missiles to reduce or negate long range accuracy.

nazgul0311 wrote:Does it seem unreasonable that Solarian/Mesan efforts to reduce Grand Alliance missile capabilities would revolve around defeating the control missiles? It seems that until they can figure out MDM tech that their only chance would be to destroy the control missiles to reduce or negate long range accuracy.

If you could destroy the control missiles - at long enough range that the other missiles aren't doing fine enough on their own for the final jog in - then you've got an ability to shoot up the rest of them too.

If it's a matter of being able to identify the control missiles and destroy them reliably and specifically, without having the sheer amount of fire to destroy the rest of them too (and still at a range that it makes a critical difference) - then you'd be on to something. But that's a matter of long-range missile interception still, something at which the SLN blows chunks. They also blow chunks at identifying technical problems and working up counters quickly, having had no experience of needing to and no tradition of working themselves to deal with hypothetical problems. And I don't know that they have surviving sensor records of an Apollo strike coming in as a starting point.

The MAN is a whole lot more professional, but it's still mostly a theoretical navy; it's small and doesn't have a large tactical officer corps to work out responses; it's lost Gail Weiss, who would have been one important part of that response; and most importantly, it's relying on not being seen as its first (practically only) defense, and long range missile interceptions aren't consistent with that.

I'm not saying that that sort of counter isn't one that would attract zero interest in either navy. But I do think that the hurdles to converting that interest into practical results in a timely fashion are crippling ones in both of them.

Don't forget that killing a control missile doesn't actually stop any of the shipkillers, it just robs them of their FTL fire control. Best case, all you've accomplished is to turn the clock back to pre-Apollo MDM combat, which if you're a Solarian means you're still in the position of the People's Navy around the time of Operation Buttercup, except that the GA also have all the new toys like Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth made possible by fusion-powered MDMs.

And this assumes that other Apollo control missiles can't pick up the 'orphans' that have lost their own control missiles; I don't think we've got textev either way on that.

JeffEngel wrote:

nazgul0311 wrote:Does it seem unreasonable that Solarian/Mesan efforts to reduce Grand Alliance missile capabilities would revolve around defeating the control missiles? It seems that until they can figure out MDM tech that their only chance would be to destroy the control missiles to reduce or negate long range accuracy.

If you could destroy the control missiles - at long enough range that the other missiles aren't doing fine enough on their own for the final jog in - then you've got an ability to shoot up the rest of them too.

If it's a matter of being able to identify the control missiles and destroy them reliably and specifically, without having the sheer amount of fire to destroy the rest of them too (and still at a range that it makes a critical difference) - then you'd be on to something. But that's a matter of long-range missile interception still, something at which the SLN blows chunks. They also blow chunks at identifying technical problems and working up counters quickly, having had no experience of needing to and no tradition of working themselves to deal with hypothetical problems. And I don't know that they have surviving sensor records of an Apollo strike coming in as a starting point.

The MAN is a whole lot more professional, but it's still mostly a theoretical navy; it's small and doesn't have a large tactical officer corps to work out responses; it's lost Gail Weiss, who would have been one important part of that response; and most importantly, it's relying on not being seen as its first (practically only) defense, and long range missile interceptions aren't consistent with that.

I'm not saying that that sort of counter isn't one that would attract zero interest in either navy. But I do think that the hurdles to converting that interest into practical results in a timely fashion are crippling ones in both of them.

They would have to have figured out how the ftl control link works and disruopt the communication from the mother ship. But that would only be part of it. The control missile has a.very sophisticated AI which can be programed with a variety of routines for use in directing the missiles it controls.

Not impossible for the bad guys to get on top of, but very, very tough.

Don

Dafmeister wrote:Don't forget that killing a control missile doesn't actually stop any of the shipkillers, it just robs them of their FTL fire control. Best case, all you've accomplished is to turn the clock back to pre-Apollo MDM combat, which if you're a Solarian means you're still in the position of the People's Navy around the time of Operation Buttercup, except that the GA also have all the new toys like Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth made possible by fusion-powered MDMs.

And this assumes that other Apollo control missiles can't pick up the 'orphans' that have lost their own control missiles; I don't think we've got textev either way on that.

Actually your best case is probably a bit better than just turning back the clock.

Due to the multiplying effect the Apollo control missiles provide (you only need one control slot for each cluster; instead of one per missile) the launching ships often don't have enough light-speed fire control to talk to all the individual shipkillers. So a bunch of missiles would be left in myopic autonomous mode and probably fail to attack.

Then depending on the timing they might not be able to effectively switch over and establish radio links with all the missiles in time. (On the other hand, if you can't kill the Apollo control missile until the cluster hits CM range then it's too late for killing it to help you)
So kill it too early and the RMN can reestablish light-speed links to some (but probably not all) their shipkillers. Kill it too late and the shipkillers have acquired terminal lock and it doesn't buy you much.


So even if they develop the capability there some thought that would go into the timing of it. (And while I agree that neutralizing the Apollo control missile is an obvious goal to hope for, I tend to doubt it's going to be easy to pull off)

Jonathan_S wrote:So even if they develop the capability there some thought that would go into the timing of it. (And while I agree that neutralizing the Apollo control missile is an obvious goal to hope for, I tend to doubt it's going to be easy to pull off)

My first thought was, "How did the SLN find out there was a separate control missile?"

How Apollo works is a closely held RMN/Manticore Alliance secret; I don't think even Haven and the Andermani knew enough about it to consider ways to counter the ACM before they allied with Manticore.

Weird Harold wrote:My first thought was, "How did the SLN find out there was a separate control missile?"

How Apollo works is a closely held RMN/Manticore Alliance secret; I don't think even Haven and the Andermani knew enough about it to consider ways to counter the ACM before they allied with Manticore.

Once they manage to get any sensor records home of the "clumped' missile, which might even be noticeable from what they do have of Filareta's Folly, it shouldn't take a genius to figure out what sort of control scheme Apollo uses.

From there it becomes an issue of how far out might they be able to go after the control missiles and what effect would that have.

If you knock out the control missile far enough out, the individual missiles would need to make their own attack profile decisions based solely on their individual sensors and without coordinating with the other clusters in the salvo, which seems worthwhile in its own right.

To do that you need either something like a LAC, or a very long ranged interceptor.
My idea of using MDM ranged interceptors to flank they incoming salvo and target the control missiles from the side or behind was officially deemed impractical, so to get to the control missile you'd have to go through the salvo.
It's canon that the attack birds block the view of the control bird wedge from the front, but it might be possible to make certain assumptions about the volume of space behind the attack birds in which each control missile lies, much like laser heads do when attacking ships. This is especially true if you can get a recon drone out on the flanks of the salvo to look for them.
If that volume of space is reasonably sized, it might be possible to have the interceptor skirt past the attack birds and attempt to change course into the predicted volume for the control missile.
Or else have the initial launch of interceptors target the leading edge of the salvo hoping to open up a hole to get the control missile shortly after.

It seems that there are two fundamental problems in dealing with Apollo (besides the range issues).

One, not always remarked, is the sheer speed with which MDMs come in -- they cross the defense zone so fast that there is only time for a single wave of countermissiles and one cycle of point defense clusters. And the incoming wave can be composed of a number of launch cycles worth of missiles.

So: increase countermissile launcher numbers, speed up countermissile launch cycles, increase number of PD clusters, decrease cycle time between shots, improve tracking software, do better training. All pretty basic to anti-MDM defense, whether Apollo or non-Apollo MDMs.

Second, the control missiles link the regular missiles with home-based fire control AND serve as AI processing nodes for the distributed sensor system that is the missile wave. That doesn't stop the wave from coming in with a huge single "smash", but it makes the defense's job easier.

Problem: how to do it? The control missiles are trailing behind the regular missiles, which makes it harder to get a lock on them through the wedge interference, and means that by the time your laser clusters can reach them the regular missiles have already received their attack orders and are deploying their laser rods preparatory to firing. So you really need longer-ranged countermissiles with MUCH better seeking heads to take them out at long range so you can fire another cycle of countermissiles at the regular missiles once they're no longer taking full advantage of the FTL link to evade your attacks.

ericth wrote:Once they manage to get any sensor records home of the "clumped' missile, which might even be noticeable from what they do have of Filareta's Folly, it shouldn't take a genius to figure out what sort of control scheme Apollo uses.

The SLN has shown a distinct lack of geniuses or even sub-geniuses in positions to make decisions.

Second, with very few exceptions, those in charge have dismissed what tactical imagery they have (mostly from the battle of spindle) as being doctored by Manticore to prove "impossible" performance claims.

Third, almost nobody in the SLN believes that FTL Communications can fit in anything smaller than a battle-cruiser, so it would take a "genius" to figure out the existence or importance of the ACM -- or at least someone not afflicted with NIH prejudice.

nazgul0311 wrote:Does it seem unreasonable that Solarian/Mesan efforts to reduce Grand Alliance missile capabilities would revolve around defeating the control missiles? It seems that until they can figure out MDM tech that their only chance would be to destroy the control missiles to reduce or negate long range accuracy.

At present, and for at least several years in the Honorverse, I don't think there IS a counter to an FTL controlled MDM.

Here's why: Look at how Zavala's ships used the recon drones as a not-quite-as fast but still effective tool to wipe out BC ships in one launch apiece.

Consider this as a typical battle sequence: RMN puts out ghost-rider drones (still undetectable by anybody, so far) as soon as they arrive, or an attacking force arrives if they're on defense. Those go out at an extremely high G-rates compared to the ships, but because of the hyper limits, they have time to get on station and the op force ships are surrounded.

Battle starts, Apollo missiles launched, and let's say the Op Force figures out how to wipe out their control as far out as maybe 20MM km. Prior to that the 23-E has likely used it's AI to slave it's set of missiles to one of those "up close and personal" RD's uptake in case the control missile loses linkage.

Does anyone think that enough individual MK23's are going to miss if they've got that drone uptake to work with as the attack missiles get to attack range of their targets? If so, refer to the better known (in the SLN) Battle of Monica...