LAC vs Aerospace Fighters

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LAC vs Aerospace Fighters
by hairbear541 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:26 pm
hairbear541 Ensign Posts: 23 Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:25 pm	now I know this will cause quite a few bad reactions , but has miniaturization reached its limits with the LAC or can a viable fighter vehicle be produced with a 2-4 man crew to take its place in the future . i know weapons were reduced in size along with the LAC's size increased to make it a viable first stike vessel . what i want to know is could a viable fighter sized craft be built .
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by hairbear541 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:26 pm

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now I know this will cause quite a few bad reactions , but has miniaturization reached its limits with the LAC or can a viable fighter vehicle be produced with a 2-4 man crew to take its place in the future . i know weapons were reduced in size along with the LAC's size increased to make it a viable first stike vessel . what i want to know is could a viable fighter sized craft be built .

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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters
by Theemile » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:08 pm
Theemile Fleet Admiral Posts: 5243 Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH	hairbear541 wrote:now I know this will cause quite a few bad reactions , but has miniaturization reached its limits with the LAC or can a viable fighter vehicle be produced with a 2-4 man crew to take its place in the future . i know weapons were reduced in size along with the LAC's size increased to make it a viable first stike vessel . what i want to know is could a viable fighter sized craft be built . Fighters actually exist in the Honorverse. They are called sting ships. These ships are in the same range as shuttles - namely ~100-600 tons. However, while their weapons could harm merchants, they are too small to hurt military starships. Remember, LACs are 2 magnitudes larger than this (read ~100x the size), and at their smaller end, they are the same size as warship missiles. Also, sting ships only have a max accel a few meters per second higher than a LAC- maybe a dozen or 2 with advanced comps- with the same top end as any warship -not the 10-20x speed fighters usually enjoy, so their speed will not give them any protection. In short, we're not going to see fighters used seriously by a 1st tier navy. ****** RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters

by Theemile » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:08 pm

Theemile
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hairbear541 wrote:now I know this will cause quite a few bad reactions , but has miniaturization reached its limits with the LAC or can a viable fighter vehicle be produced with a 2-4 man crew to take its place in the future . i know weapons were reduced in size along with the LAC's size increased to make it a viable first stike vessel . what i want to know is could a viable fighter sized craft be built .

Fighters actually exist in the Honorverse. They are called sting ships. These ships are in the same range as shuttles - namely ~100-600 tons. However, while their weapons could harm merchants, they are too small to hurt military starships. Remember, LACs are 2 magnitudes larger than this (read ~100x the size), and at their smaller end, they are the same size as warship missiles.

Also, sting ships only have a max accel a few meters per second higher than a LAC- maybe a dozen or 2 with advanced comps- with the same top end as any warship -not the 10-20x speed fighters usually enjoy, so their speed will not give them any protection.

In short, we're not going to see fighters used seriously by a 1st tier navy.

******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."

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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters
by n7axw » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:37 pm
n7axw Fleet Admiral Posts: 5997 Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm Location: Viborg, SD	Theemile wrote: hairbear541 wrote:now I know this will cause quite a few bad reactions , but has miniaturization reached its limits with the LAC or can a viable fighter vehicle be produced with a 2-4 man crew to take its place in the future . i know weapons were reduced in size along with the LAC's size increased to make it a viable first stike vessel . what i want to know is could a viable fighter sized craft be built . Fighters actually exist in the Honorverse. They are called sting ships. These ships are in the same range as shuttles - namely ~100-600 tons. However, while their weapons could harm merchants, they are too small to hurt military starships. Remember, LACs are 2 magnitudes larger than this (read ~100x the size), and at their smaller end, they are the same size as warship missiles. Also, sting ships only have a max accel a few meters per second higher than a LAC- maybe a dozen or 2 with advanced comps- with the same top end as any warship -not the 10-20x speed fighters usually enjoy, so their speed will not give them any protection. In short, we're not going to see fighters used seriously by a 1st tier navy. Hi Theemile, My question is do LACs operate in atmosphere? I don't recall any instance where they did, although I could stand to be corrected on this...If not, then they are not in competition with atmospheric fighters, although in an era when unified planetary governments are the norm, I'm not sure why an atmospheric fighter would be called for, except when needed for escorts for vessels like the Queen's yacht. The sting ships apparently operate both in space and atmosphere. Don When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters

by n7axw » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:37 pm

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Theemile wrote:
hairbear541 wrote:now I know this will cause quite a few bad reactions , but has miniaturization reached its limits with the LAC or can a viable fighter vehicle be produced with a 2-4 man crew to take its place in the future . i know weapons were reduced in size along with the LAC's size increased to make it a viable first stike vessel . what i want to know is could a viable fighter sized craft be built .

Fighters actually exist in the Honorverse. They are called sting ships. These ships are in the same range as shuttles - namely ~100-600 tons. However, while their weapons could harm merchants, they are too small to hurt military starships. Remember, LACs are 2 magnitudes larger than this (read ~100x the size), and at their smaller end, they are the same size as warship missiles.

Also, sting ships only have a max accel a few meters per second higher than a LAC- maybe a dozen or 2 with advanced comps- with the same top end as any warship -not the 10-20x speed fighters usually enjoy, so their speed will not give them any protection.

In short, we're not going to see fighters used seriously by a 1st tier navy.

Hi Theemile,

My question is do LACs operate in atmosphere? I don't recall any instance where they did, although I could stand to be corrected on this...If not, then they are not in competition with atmospheric fighters, although in an era when unified planetary governments are the norm, I'm not sure why an atmospheric fighter would be called for, except when needed for escorts for vessels like the Queen's yacht. The sting ships apparently operate both in space and atmosphere.

Don

When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.

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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters
by hairbear541 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:20 am
hairbear541 Ensign Posts: 23 Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:25 pm	thanks guys for not having a kaniption fit at the suggestion of fighter craft . the first post I made I thought the whole alliance had ganged up on me for suggesting smaller classes of LAC carriers . I felt like I was on the receiving end of the Mariannes Turkey shoot .
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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters

by hairbear541 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:20 am

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thanks guys for not having a kaniption fit at the suggestion of fighter craft . the first post I made I thought the whole alliance had ganged up on me for suggesting smaller classes of LAC carriers . I felt like I was on the receiving end of the Mariannes Turkey shoot .

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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters
by kzt » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:34 am
kzt Fleet Admiral Posts: 11360 Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm Location: Albuquerque, NM	There really doesn't seem to be any compelling reason to prohibit a strike vehicle with a 4-5 man crew. You pretty much can only run for 24-36 hours, as the crew rest issue gets huge after that, so that is a major limit for some LAC missions. But essentially you have a minimum of defensive systems operator, offensive systems operator, pilot and vehicle commander. You might need a flight engineer, but a nuclear reactor seems pretty damn automated to me, so essentially that job would be energy budget management.
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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters

by kzt » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:34 am

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There really doesn't seem to be any compelling reason to prohibit a strike vehicle with a 4-5 man crew. You pretty much can only run for 24-36 hours, as the crew rest issue gets huge after that, so that is a major limit for some LAC missions.

But essentially you have a minimum of defensive systems operator, offensive systems operator, pilot and vehicle commander. You might need a flight engineer, but a nuclear reactor seems pretty damn automated to me, so essentially that job would be energy budget management.

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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters
by Garth 2 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:47 am
Garth 2 Captain of the List Posts: 426 Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:04 am	Its been mentioned that the LAC had been planet based to support fleet operations during the second Jannaceks Admiralty period. War of Honor (location 12413 in Kindle version), during operation Thunderbolt Trevor Star section: "Not with the hundreds of planet-based LACs the Jannacek Admiralty had deployed to back up Third Fleet as relations with the Republic worsened steadily.") . There still is a requirement for Aerospace Fighters, though KEW are high precision weapons they don't generally leave a lot behind. A good example would be in HoQ, at the Blackbird base assault the first strike operations carried out by the pinnaces to 'open the doors', if this had been a Royal Manticore Army operation (i.e. on an Earth type world) then the stinger ships would have been used.
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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters

by Garth 2 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:47 am

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Its been mentioned that the LAC had been planet based to support fleet operations during the second Jannaceks Admiralty period.
War of Honor (location 12413 in Kindle version), during operation Thunderbolt Trevor Star section:
"Not with the hundreds of planet-based LACs the Jannacek Admiralty had deployed to back up Third Fleet as relations with the Republic worsened steadily.") .

There still is a requirement for Aerospace Fighters, though KEW are high precision weapons they don't generally leave a lot behind.

A good example would be in HoQ, at the Blackbird base assault the first strike operations carried out by the pinnaces to 'open the doors', if this had been a Royal Manticore Army operation (i.e. on an Earth type world) then the stinger ships would have been used.

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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters
by Whitecold » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:40 am
Whitecold Commander Posts: 173 Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:13 am Location: Switzerland	My guess is that planet-based means in orbit of the planet. While LAC crews might be further reduced, I don't think they will get much smaller. The Katana which seems to be the future of LACs is pretty much limited by the size of its magazines and launchers, and my guess is that any smaller CM results in more launchers and magazine capacity than smaller LACs, and even then a factor 100 is way too much. Strike Craft like sting ships, pinnaces and assault shuttles own their existence that not every problem can be solved by a bigger hammer. In the only engagement we have seen on Hell the assault shuttle had trouble destroying an unarmed, defenseless courier with crappy sensors. An old style LAC would have been impervious.
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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters

by Whitecold » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:40 am

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My guess is that planet-based means in orbit of the planet. While LAC crews might be further reduced, I don't think they will get much smaller.
The Katana which seems to be the future of LACs is pretty much limited by the size of its magazines and launchers, and my guess is that any smaller CM results in more launchers and magazine capacity than smaller LACs, and even then a factor 100 is way too much.
Strike Craft like sting ships, pinnaces and assault shuttles own their existence that not every problem can be solved by a bigger hammer. In the only engagement we have seen on Hell the assault shuttle had trouble destroying an unarmed, defenseless courier with crappy sensors. An old style LAC would have been impervious.

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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters
by hairbear541 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:33 am
hairbear541 Ensign Posts: 23 Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:25 pm	the reason I keep bringing the subject up is i'm ex-navy plus in rfc's starfire series they use aerospace fighters and vessels about the size of LACs . I know an ASF wouldn't be as long legged as a LAC , but wouldn't a fleet ASF be a viable supplement to the LAC forces . during the Vietnam war the F-4 Phantom wasn't called a baby B-52 for nothing(they carried about half there own wt. in ordinance... missles ,bombs or a combination of both). the original old salty sea dog
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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters

by hairbear541 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:33 am

hairbear541
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the reason I keep bringing the subject up is i'm ex-navy plus in rfc's starfire series they use aerospace fighters and vessels about the size of LACs . I know an ASF wouldn't be as long legged as a LAC , but wouldn't a fleet ASF be a viable supplement to the LAC forces . during the Vietnam war the F-4 Phantom wasn't called a baby B-52 for nothing(they carried about half there own wt. in ordinance... missles ,bombs or a combination of both). the original old salty sea dog

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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters
by HungryKing » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:28 am
HungryKing Captain (Junior Grade) Posts: 369 Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 9:43 pm	We know it is possible to design something larger, with an impeller drive than a LAC for planetary operations, Cathy's yatch is capable of landing. As for LACs themselves, it has been indicated than Manti LACs are not designed for high speed atmospheric operations. They are probably not even equipped with the system needed for atmospheric operations, when they are first described it is mentioned that they look like a pinnace or assault shuttle with no wings, (although they also have two impeller rings) later designs may not even been streamlined. As for ASF being a complement, not really, LACs represent a minimal platform for serious space weaponry. Now this is not to say that Sting Ships or weapons heavy assault shuttles are not used: they are used to police merchants, remember than even their weapons are enough to do serious damage to a merchant or a dispatch boat. Manticore has restrictions on sting ships, the east cay compromise, which restrict their operating radius to only a light minute, so we do not see them very much. Astro Control, which is the only place we would see them, is a civilian navy organization, and probably errs on the side of caution, they use pinnaces, or cutters.
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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters

by HungryKing » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:28 am

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We know it is possible to design something larger, with an impeller drive than a LAC for planetary operations, Cathy's yatch is capable of landing. As for LACs themselves, it has been indicated than Manti LACs are not designed for high speed atmospheric operations. They are probably not even equipped with the system needed for atmospheric operations, when they are first described it is mentioned that they look like a pinnace or assault shuttle with no wings, (although they also have two impeller rings) later designs may not even been streamlined.
As for ASF being a complement, not really, LACs represent a minimal platform for serious space weaponry. Now this is not to say that Sting Ships or weapons heavy assault shuttles are not used: they are used to police merchants, remember than even their weapons are enough to do serious damage to a merchant or a dispatch boat. Manticore has restrictions on sting ships, the east cay compromise, which restrict their operating radius to only a light minute, so we do not see them very much. Astro Control, which is the only place we would see them, is a civilian navy organization, and probably errs on the side of caution, they use pinnaces, or cutters.

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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters
by drothgery » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:03 pm
drothgery Admiral Posts: 2025 Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:07 pm Location: San Diego, CA, USA	HungryKing wrote:We know it is possible to design something larger, with an impeller drive than a LAC for planetary operations, Cathy's yatch is capable of landing. No, it's not. That was fixed between the e-arc and the final version of ToF.
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Re: LAC vs Aerospace Fighters

by drothgery » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:03 pm

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HungryKing wrote:We know it is possible to design something larger, with an impeller drive than a LAC for planetary operations, Cathy's yatch is capable of landing.

No, it's not. That was fixed between the e-arc and the final version of ToF.

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