Population in the Honorverse?

I wonder how many humans life in the entire settled space (~500-700 ly radius around Earth).

In War of Honor the number of 1700 is given as total amount of worlds, though later the League alone shall have that amount.

Today Earth has 7 billion people, which are expected to rise to 8-15 bio in this and the next century.

The Solarian League includes 1700 planets which together account for over 3 trillion inhabitants, of the first 100-150 settled worlds mamy have over 10 billion, Earth is described as "in the tens of billions" or so (>20 bio).

Others like the Manticore system have 3,6 bio in 1922 (HH12), Grayson and Masada 9 bio together in HH2. Lynx's population is at 2,3 and those of Zanzibar 4, while Mesa has 6B. In 2400 CE the Sol system had over 12 bio.

After the first ride through the Lynx junction a member of the scouting ships crew mentions that no planet in the Talbott cluster has a population of over 3 billion like that would be small.

I also assume that "planet" and "world" in most cases mean Earth-like celestial bodies with a breatable atmosphere, not small mining and scientific outposts, military bases etc on barren rocks like Blackbird (included nothing but a secret marine base) and Luna (settled before 2064 CE).

Well, my personal guess is that there are ~5000-6000 planets with ~6-10 trillion people together. The Solarian League (including protectores) accounts for 35%-50% of that.

As WEB Havel effectively stated in CoS: "the population of humanity is uncountable"

Especially as no-one (in verse) actually knows where all of the colonies etc. actually are.

Given the repeated statements that the aggregate human population of the Honorverse numbers in the trillions, one is forced to conclude that people have resumed procreating rather than just fornicating.

Given the fact that the Wintons are notable for their dark skin even though they are descendants from peoples who emigrated from Europe and North America, perhaps those continents became predominantly populated by people of African origin? Given the fact that aafrica is the only continent with a TFR significantly higher than 2.1, this seems plausible.

namelessfly wrote:Given the repeated statements that the aggregate human population of the Honorverse numbers in the trillions, one is forced to conclude that people have resumed procreating rather than just fornicating.

Given the fact that the Wintons are notable for their dark skin even though they are descendants from peoples who emigrated from Europe and North America, perhaps those continents became predominantly populated by people of African origin? Given the fact that aafrica is the only continent with a TFR significantly higher than 2.1, this seems plausible.

There are plenty of contemporary Americans who fit the Wintons' descriptions.

It might be that economic and social changes have reduced the penalties associated with child-bearing.

namelessfly wrote:Given the repeated statements that the aggregate human population of the Honorverse numbers in the trillions, one is forced to conclude that people have resumed procreating rather than just fornicating.

Not sure why humanity would have to suddenly re-focus on children more than we are today to really run up to trillions.

I don't recall the exact translation, but the 1900s PD are roughly 4000 AD - over 2,000 years, a meager (lower than current US) population growth rate of 1%/year turns 7 billion (7 x 10 ^ 9) into 6 quintillion (6 x 10 ^ 18)

Nobody needs to start breeding like bunnies to make humanity pretty much uncountable after two thousand years!

Perhaps after a generation or three of declining birt rates enabled by contraception, the vast majority of the people are descendants of people who knowingly and intentionally conceived children and this desire was passed on either through social/religious acculturation or genetically?

Weber indicates that artificial wombs are a well established technology. They might be vital for the survival of early colonies whose STL ships could carry limited number of people. Such technology might enable a colony to have a TFR of may be 20 and increase it's population by a factor of 10 with each generation.

phillies wrote:

namelessfly wrote:Given the repeated statements that the aggregate human population of the Honorverse numbers in the trillions, one is forced to conclude that people have resumed procreating rather than just fornicating.

Given the fact that the Wintons are notable for their dark skin even though they are descendants from peoples who emigrated from Europe and North America, perhaps those continents became predominantly populated by people of African origin? Given the fact that aafrica is the only continent with a TFR significantly higher than 2.1, this seems plausible.

There are plenty of contemporary Americans who fit the Wintons' descriptions.

It might be that economic and social changes have reduced the penalties associated with child-bearing.

namelessfly wrote:Perhaps after a generation or three of declining birt rates enabled by contraception, the vast majority of the people are descendants of people who knowingly and intentionally conceived children and this desire was passed on either through social/religious acculturation or genetically?

People still need to be fed, and there's lots of discussion that indicates this is the limiting factor in the size of population a specific system (or group of systems, if you import food) can support.

Obesity is rampant on Earth now, so there is no shortage of food that could account for the now plummeting birth rates. To get from the current population of IIRC 6 billion to multiple trillions, you have to have about ten population doublings. Doubling population in about 200 years is easy, but only if your society values procreation more than modern, industrialized, "enlightened" society seems to. I am simply making the point that Honorverse societies would have to become somewhat different than contemporary society to get a steady

You might recall that I was one of the posters suggesting that many of the core worlds would be facing starvation as a result of Manticore imposing Case Lacoon I and II. My rationale was that core worlds had originally been founded with STL transports which precluded them from being too choosy about how Earthlike their new homes were and they had had nearly 2,000 years to reach and exceed naturally carrying capacity. The massive residential towers that Weber describes would enable urban population densities on the order of one million people per square mile, so urban sprawl would not become an issue until planetary populations were in the trillions. Others suggested that advanced factory farms would free industrilised planets from the constraints of arable land. However; such farming might be so capital and labor intensive that
importing food is cheaper.

JohnRoth wrote:

namelessfly wrote:Perhaps after a generation or three of declining birt rates enabled by contraception, the vast majority of the people are descendants of people who knowingly and intentionally conceived children and this desire was passed on either through social/religious acculturation or genetically?

People still need to be fed, and there's lots of discussion that indicates this is the limiting factor in the size of population a specific system (or group of systems, if you import food) can support.

Hi Antanica,

Welcome to the forums, enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

This has been a pet subject of mine from the bar 8 years ago, and RFC's previous posts on the subject put the total of humanity somewhere between roughly 15 and 20 trillions, with roughly 2/3 in the SL.

Our thread consensus then was that the average league system IIRC, had a population of 11-13 billion; which RFC said was way too high.

You may have noticed the general drop in planetary populations the further from Terra they are, which is natural given the time of habitation.

First, remember WEB reminded Helen in CoS there are 1784 member systems in the SL [besides the 'several hundred protectorates' mentioned from WroH onwards] with several dozen of the 'old league' core that have upwards of 30 billion each that accounted for the 3 trillion, and in Earth's case the official count is known to be way off, because they refused to count the unofficial [those in the underground economy etc] besides thousands of systems beyond the verge easily stretching a thousand LY or more from Sol, including textev of a wormhole almost a thousand LY long though only 5 hyper bridges had termini inside the SL at the time of the UHH in the MTH anthology.

Remember Haven is 677 LY from Sol, and it was settled in 1309, about 25 years after the Warshawski hyper drive had been adapted for colonization, implying a sphere of some 1.3 Billion cubic LY's had already been mapped and settled.

So it shouldn't be surprising if colonies have been established a thousand or more LY from Terra in the 613 years since.

While such planets as Grayson were found in the 'Goldilocks' zone, hyper survey ships meant only the better planets were offered from then on, the hyper colony ship meant only the 'A' list would be considered from then on, as colonization had become so relatively cheap and easy due in part to the rapid cloture rate, thanks to the size of the expeditionary or pioneer population now possible; where during the cryo era the colony 'payload' was very tiny compared to the mass of the ship, as described in UHH.

The population of the SKM in UHH was put at 3.4215 B in UHH, which is why almost the same figures being used in HoS were so disappointing, when even a 1% annual increase over 20 years should have pushed the SKM to at least 4B, but such oversights do happen to the best of us.

The number of verge systems, ie those beyond the SL boundaries has been mentioned being in the thousands many times, but never over ten thousand though that's certainly possibly by now.

RFC might point out that such vast numbers aren't pertinent to the Honorverse, as trying to tell their stories would only bog us all down with unnecessary details instead of the action we expect and hope for.

L

Antanica wrote:I wonder how many humans life in the entire settled space (~500-700 ly radius around Earth).

In War of Honor the number of 1700 is given as total amount of worlds, though later the League alone shall have that amount.

Today Earth has 7 billion people, which are expected to rise to 8-15 bio in this and the next century.

The Solarian League includes 1700 planets which together account for over 3 trillion inhabitants, of the first 100-150 settled worlds mamy have over 10 billion, Earth is described as "in the tens of billions" or so (>20 bio).

Others like the Manticore system have 3,6 bio in 1922 (HH12), Grayson and Masada 9 bio together in HH2. Lynx's population is at 2,3 and those of Zanzibar 4, while Mesa has 6B. In 2400 CE the Sol system had over 12 bio.

After the first ride through the Lynx junction a member of the scouting ships crew mentions that no planet in the Talbott cluster has a population of over 3 billion like that would be small.

I also assume that "planet" and "world" in most cases mean Earth-like celestial bodies with a breatable atmosphere, not small mining and scientific outposts, military bases etc on barren rocks like Blackbird (included nothing but a secret marine base) and Luna (settled before 2064 CE).

Well, my personal guess is that there are ~5000-6000 planets with ~6-10 trillion people together. The Solarian League (including protectores) accounts for 35%-50% of that.

namelessfly wrote:You might recall that I was one of the posters suggesting that many of the core worlds would be facing starvation as a result of Manticore imposing Case Lacoon I and II. My rationale was that core worlds had originally been founded with STL transports which precluded them from being too choosy about how Earthlike their new homes were and they had had nearly 2,000 years to reach and exceed naturally carrying capacity. The massive residential towers that Weber describes would enable urban population densities on the order of one million people per square mile, so urban sprawl would not become an issue until planetary populations were in the trillions. Others suggested that advanced factory farms would free industrilised planets from the constraints of arable land. However; such farming might be so capital and labor intensive that
importing food is cheaper.

Yes, I recall that. But I also recall that David stated that populations on the Core worlds were orders of magnitude lower than you suggested, and that systems would not starve as a result of Lacoon I and II.