The SLN commerce raiding strategy WILL work.

The drift of the BB(P) thread got me thinking about commerce raiding given the evolving security environment in the SEM protectorates.

First and Second tier systems such as Manticore, Yelstin, Haven and the various systems involved in the Havenite wars are graveyards for even an SLN battle fleet. However; the newly annexed systems in Silesia, the Talbot quadrant, and the Verge are or will be getting nothing beyond LACs and missile pods with an occasional DD or CA dropping by to check on them. It would be suicidal for the SLN to raid these systems except may be with 100+ SDs. However; this defense posture does not preclude attacks outside of the hyper limit. Dropping into normal space to raid orbital platforms might not be practical, but it is open season on freighters once they cross the hyper wall.

The GA is short on ships to patrol the hyperspace volumes around it's newly acquired protectorates. It will be rough forafew years.

namelessfly wrote:The drift of the BB(P) thread got me thinking about commerce raiding given the evolving security environment in the SEM protectorates.

First and Second tier systems such as Manticore, Yelstin, Haven and the various systems involved in the Havenite wars are graveyards for even an SLN battle fleet. However; the newly annexed systems in Silesia, the Talbot quadrant, and the Verge are or will be getting nothing beyond LACs and missile pods with an occasional DD or CA dropping by to check on them. It would be suicidal for the SLN to raid these systems except may be with 100+ SDs. However; this defense posture does not preclude attacks outside of the hyper limit. Dropping into normal space to raid orbital platforms might not be practical, but it is open season on freighters once they cross the hyper wall.

The GA is short on ships to patrol the hyperspace volumes around it's newly acquired protectorates. It will be rough for a few years.

I agree the commerce raiding will hurt the GA more than anything else the formerly ISLN can do.

But my chief question is who has the experience in commerce warfare?

Also, I also believe the tech is less important than the military methodology. Speed of response, training doctrine, tactical development doctrine and logistics are all going to prove more important than the technology. I especially like the scene of ships leaving orbit with lots of small craft chasing the warships with personnel (including at least one admiral!) on board.

But commerce raiding is likely to hurt the GA.

namelessfly wrote:The drift of the BB(P) thread got me thinking about commerce raiding given the evolving security environment in the SEM protectorates.

First and Second tier systems such as Manticore, Yelstin, Haven and the various systems involved in the Havenite wars are graveyards for even an SLN battle fleet. However; the newly annexed systems in Silesia, the Talbot quadrant, and the Verge are or will be getting nothing beyond LACs and missile pods with an occasional DD or CA dropping by to check on them. It would be suicidal for the SLN to raid these systems except may be with 100+ SDs. However; this defense posture does not preclude attacks outside of the hyper limit. Dropping into normal space to raid orbital platforms might not be practical, but it is open season on freighters once they cross the hyper wall.

The GA is short on ships to patrol the hyperspace volumes around it's newly acquired protectorates. It will be rough forafew years.

While it will be rough at times in places (where ever the SLN raiders are), I think you overstate the problem. As soon as SLN raiders start showing up, Manticore will look at the maps it must have of SLN base locations (they aren't secret), and will remove a lot of them from the area. Then the SLN gets to figure out, on the fly, how to keep ships supported without logistics.

There is also the question of whether the SLN will implement the plan very well, given that it seems to be a MAlign plot. The plan could certainly work, but the MAlign may introduce . . . issues, to ensure the SLN fails. Or it could make sure the plan works beautifully, and hurts Manticore as much as possible (depends on what the MAlign thinks is most important at the time).

Honestly, given what we have heard of the SLN's logistics, I have doubts about raiding Silesia - it may be out of effective range for the SLN. I would guess that, on paper, they can operate ships there, but the support vessels and doctrine may well be missing. In fact, even on paper they may not be able to operate that far, without significant logistics support (possibly even to get there), thinking about the differences between US and British attitudes towards ship ranges/sizes pre-WWII.

[For those who don't know - the US operated ships in the Pacific, and required destroyers and up to be able to sail thousands of miles out of internal stores - because that was how far bases, and islands, were from each other; the British had bases everywhere, and only needed short ranges on their ships. The result was the US wanted large destroyers and cruisers in the naval treaties, and only a few, while the British wanted small ships, and lots.]

Commerce raiding is the only strategy I have seen the SLN propose that isn't completely stupid. Their ships are more then adequate to blow the hell out of merchies. Their biggest problem will be finding officers who could actually run such an endeavor.

From what I have seen of Frontier Fleet officers you do have groups with the correct mindsets of operating in small independent forces. They could probably transition well to actual commerce raiding. The SLN is going to have to go through a bit of a winnowing process to clear out some (see 95%+) of their crap officers.

Direwolf18 wrote:Commerce raiding is the only strategy I have seen the SLN propose that isn't completely stupid. Their ships are more then adequate to blow the hell out of merchies. Their biggest problem will be finding officers who could actually run such an endeavor.

From what I have seen of Frontier Fleet officers you do have groups with the correct mindsets of operating in small independent forces. They could probably transition well to actual commerce raiding. The SLN is going to have to go through a bit of a winnowing process to clear out some (see 95%+) of their crap officers.

However, in the wars between Haven and Manticore, commerce raiding invited the enemy to respond in kind. It seems the SLN would not want this, especially considering that Manticore can virtually operate with impunity.

The problem the SLN has is a matter of support structure ie bases and R&R faculties. The SLN bases in the core are going to be huge and well stocked with space-stations repair and refit yards and building yards with lots of civilian support infrastructure (think Norfolk VA or Puget Sound region WA RW). While shell bases would be smaller and more limited with smaller and less well equipped (think Pearl Harbor HI). Then you have verge bases that would even smaller still with little if any space-station and the only R&R facilities would be a few depot and repair ships (think Guam MI).

Now imagine if the USN had to operate off the east coast of Africa and it could only use its west coast bases, Hawaii and Guam. The USN could get some food and fuel from Singapore and Australia, but every thing else it had to come by sea from the CONUS. For a USN supply auxiliary ship that's about a two month trip one way.

That is what the SLN is facing operating in Silesia or Haven. Months of travel to target, battle at target then either months of travel to return to base or a second or even third target. It also faces the problem of getting its warships into the (now) frontline bases.

cthia wrote:However, in the wars between Haven and Manticore, commerce raiding invited the enemy to respond in kind. It seems the SLN would not want this, especially considering that Manticore can virtually operate with impunity.

Manticore might take the position that all Solarian-registry ships are subject to confiscation until the League formally repudiates the violations of Manticoran sovereignty it has committed.

Another point to consider is that the RMN is probably the best navy in known space at fighting piracy (with the Andies the best candidate for second) which is nearly the same thing as commerce raiding. I wonder if they'll take the position that the lack of a formal declaration of war by the League makes any commerce raiding "piracy", to be punished appropriately? It might be interesting to have GA destroyers drop out of hyper and fire off message buoys playing Voice of the Grand Alliance announcements such as the aforementioned policy, tactical recordings of New Tuscany, Spindle, Second Manticore, Zunker...

Or do they consider Second Manticore to be a de facto declaration of war? I don't know if they can have it both ways like that.

TheMonster wrote:Manticore might take the position that all Solarian-registry ships are subject to confiscation until the League formally repudiates the violations of Manticoran sovereignty it has committed.

Another point to consider is that the RMN is probably the best navy in known space at fighting piracy (with the Andies the best candidate for second) which is nearly the same thing as commerce raiding. I wonder if they'll take the position that the lack of a formal declaration of war by the League makes any commerce raiding "piracy", to be punished appropriately? It might be interesting to have GA destroyers drop out of hyper and fire off message buoys playing Voice of the Grand Alliance announcements such as the aforementioned policy, tactical recordings of New Tuscany, Spindle, Second Manticore, Zunker...

Or do they consider Second Manticore to be a de facto declaration of war? I don't know if they can have it both ways like that.

When it comes to commerce raiding, both pirates and hostile warships are fair game. The only difference is one set ends up in PoW camps and the other set goes to prison or may be spaced at the CO's discretion.

I think the GA considers Second Manticore a declaration of war. Honor warned Filareta as much before he crossed the hyper limit. Which means the Deneb Accords are now in effect. Though who would be available as the neutral observer between the SL/GA I have no idea.

munroburton wrote:

TheMonster wrote:Manticore might take the position that all Solarian-registry ships are subject to confiscation until the League formally repudiates the violations of Manticoran sovereignty it has committed.

Another point to consider is that the RMN is probably the best navy in known space at fighting piracy (with the Andies the best candidate for second) which is nearly the same thing as commerce raiding. I wonder if they'll take the position that the lack of a formal declaration of war by the League makes any commerce raiding "piracy", to be punished appropriately? It might be interesting to have GA destroyers drop out of hyper and fire off message buoys playing Voice of the Grand Alliance announcements such as the aforementioned policy, tactical recordings of New Tuscany, Spindle, Second Manticore, Zunker...

Or do they consider Second Manticore to be a de facto declaration of war? I don't know if they can have it both ways like that.

When it comes to commerce raiding, both pirates and hostile warships are fair game. The only difference is one set ends up in PoW camps and the other set goes to prison or may be spaced at the CO's discretion.

I think the GA considers Second Manticore a declaration of war. Honor warned Filareta as much before he crossed the hyper limit. Which means the Deneb Accords are now in effect. Though who would be available as the neutral observer between the SL/GA I have no idea.

That's easy the Andies, they're technically neutral to the GA and SL. Or maybe the Erehwoniese since they are also neutral.

cthia wrote:
However, in the wars between Haven and Manticore, commerce raiding invited the enemy to respond in kind. It seems the SLN would not want this, especially considering that Manticore can virtually operate with impunity.

Out of curiosity how would you define Lacoon I and Lacoon II? Especially as one of the stated goals for Lacoon II was to engage in active commerce raiding?

From chapter 26 of Mission of honor:

Faces tightened around the table with his last sentence. Case Lacoön was the Royal Manticoran Navy's plan to close all wormhole nexii under its control to Solarian traffic. Or, rather, that was the first phase of Lacoön. The second phase included active commerce raiding and the extension of de facto Manticoran control to every wormhole nexus within its reach, regardless of who that nexus nominally belonged to.

Seems to me that its going to happen regardless of what the SLN navy does, and at least in commerce raiding they could leverage the full might of their numbers.

I'm not saying it will let the Solarian League win, I just think its one of the few options open to them that could actually hurt the GA.