[spoilers] Alignment in the early 1500s

Spoilers for Friends Indeed, mostly for the prologue, but some of it after Duncan arrives on Sphinx.

We've discussed how Harrington could have been a lost Mesan Alpha line, whether Richard or Marjorie left before they were contacted by their Mesan handler, so the Alignment might not have not known even where they went to. That discussion is put to bed: Richard Harrington was explicitly not inducted into the Alignment because his cousin, Duncan, recommended not to. Richard was too married to the Beowulf Code and would not accept the radical changes the Alignment was espousing.

And the Alignment knew full well where he went to.

I have a couple of questions now:

1. Was the Alignment already evil?
2. How much did Duncan know?
3. What will Duncan do

Is the Alignment already malignant in the 1520s PD? Leonard Detweiler moved to Mesa only in 1460 PD, where he founded the planet, Manpower Inc. and the Alignment. We don't know when he died, but he may have lived a few more decades after this. We are also told that Leonard was not espousing the most radical changes, nor did he want a race of supermen controlling the "normals." However, RFC has said that the more radicals did attach themselves to Detweiler because he was the most respectable face for what they wanted to achieve.

So it is possible. It could be that those radicals simply took over as soon as Leonard died and started radicalising. But the text does not give us any evidence that the Alignment had nefarious purposes, only that they might be considered unethical by the rest of the Galaxy.


How much did Duncan know about the Alignment business? Given the fact that he knew about "security specialists" and of stealing of genetic material and specimens, I'm guessing that he was probably as deep as Jack McBryde was, or at least as much as was possible for someone not on Mesa to be. That means fairly deep, but not Inner Onion, even assuming such existed at this time (it's unlikely the Detweiler line had become publicly extinct yet).

Would he have known the Alignment had turned evil, assuming it had? Possibly, possibly not. Duncan knows about some unethical practices, but that's all. We don't get any conclusive evidence that the Alignment was malignant, so we can't get any that Duncan would know about it either. In fact, I'm not sure Jack had known how evil the Alignment had become: we never get a confirmation he knew of the activities in the Talbot Sector, for example, or that he knew of Darius.

More important for Duncan, he does not appear to be an idealist. He appears to be getting convinced by his very precocious first cousin, once removed, Stephanie Harrington.


So what will he do now? And mind you, we know that the Galaxy at large and the Alignment in particular don't get to know that the treecats are telepaths. Since he's been inducted into the Great Treecat Conspiracy and has quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that should show they are telepaths, it stands to reason he never makes a full report to Abner. To my mind, that could be for one of two reasons: either he dies before making a report he intended to do, or he makes a report that misleads the Alignment.

Both options appear possible. On one hand, his dying would add support to why the Harrington line became lost. If he is alive and on Manticore or returns to Meyerdahl, would the line be considered lost? But if he never makes a report, would the Alignment cease searching? Well, it's of course possible that both are right.

I think more likely that he's the one who advises the GTC that telling the Galaxy the treecats are telepathic is a bad idea, that it will attract all sorts of unsavoury types trying to kidnap them. He may do that without betraying the objective (as he knows) of the Alignment, because he probably still subscribes to it, if not its practices.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Is the Alignment already malignant in the 1520s PD? Leonard Detweiler moved to Mesa only in 1460 PD, where he founded the planet, Manpower Inc. and the Alignment. We don't know when he died, but he may have lived a few more decades after this. We are also told that Leonard was not espousing the most radical changes, nor did he want a race of supermen controlling the "normals." However, RFC has said that the more radicals did attach themselves to Detweiler because he was the most respectable face for what they wanted to achieve.

So it is possible. It could be that those radicals simply took over as soon as Leonard died and started radicalising. But the text does not give us any evidence that the Alignment had nefarious purposes, only that they might be considered unethical by the rest of the Galaxy.

I'm conflicted, because the concept of an Alpha line sounds like it should be part of the Mesan Alignment planning. However I did not think that really got going until after the "last" Detweiler was believed to be assassinated by the Manpower board (which I thought occurred a couple of generations after Leonard).

Even in Leonard's time Manpower was creating indentured servants to specifications. So was one of these servant lines the beginning of the Alpha line?

PS: I am confused about Mesa: we know that Detweiler got the rights to it cheaply because it required terraforming. Instead he planned to adjust people to live there. However we never see people having trouble being on Mesa, even though they were never adjusted for it; so what gives? Was it effectively terraformed by the acts of people living there for more than 500 years?

It was also stated that there were Alignment modifications to the Harrington line several generations before Stephanie. I have stated that I had doubted that there were Alignment modifications because Allison would had noticed them. Thus, I have come to suspect that those modifications are what prevents Honor from enjoying regen therapy (which, the best I can tell, did not exist in the 16th century PD).

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:It was also stated that there were Alignment modifications to the Harrington line several generations before Stephanie. I have stated that I had doubted that there were Alignment modifications because Allison would had noticed them. Thus, I have come to suspect that those modifications are what prevents Honor from enjoying regen therapy (which, the best I can tell, did not exist in the 16th century PD).

I think at this early stage, the modifications must be very subtle. First, they wouldn't have had the expertise to know what to change. Second, this being on Meyerdahl, not Mesa, the Alignment would be very careful about modifications that could result in significant side-effects, which would bring the attention of geneticists.

It's possible Richard's genome was tweaked, which would imply Aunt Gabriella is not his mother. That would put the modifications at something like 10-20 years from the Alignment's founding, which would explain why they are subtle.

For the modifications to have happened "several generations" before Stephanie, we need to revise the founding of the Alignment itself. It must predate the founding of Mesa... which means it was started on Beowulf. That would add another 20 T-years, so the modifications could have been done to Stephanie's grandparents.

Another possibility is that the modifications in the Harrington line predate the Alignment. That is, maybe the already was a clandestine movement using Meyerdahl as petri dish, which was absorbed into the Alignment. Those mods may then have then given way to the initial set of Alignment lines.

Which would make penny very, very happy: not only would the Harringtons be alphas, they'd be the original alphas.

Evil is as evil does. On the outside, I do not think there is anything inherently evil in genetic uplift; in wanting to increase man’s chances of survival in the final frontier. It might have been a bit unscrupulous at the outset, keeping it a secret from all the rest of mankind as a whole. And probably a bit irresponsible as well, in case something else went horribly wrong.

What makes it evil is the many atrocities one finds themselves having to commit to achieve the originally laudable goals. What went on in the labs was truly evil. I'm talking about the Frankenstein Complex Squared. Also the things one finds one has to do to keep a secret project of such immensity secret might approach evil. Certainly immoral in the beginning? Yes. Irresponsible? yes. But evil? That certainly came later. Evil is as evil does.

I intend to get a copy of this book soon. In the meantime I am trying not to get spoiled.

danielcraig wrote:If Duncan was aware of the Alignment's unethical practices but not its potentially malignant turn, what specific events or revelations on Sphinx might push him to fully reject the Alignment and align himself with Stephanie’s perspective instead?
Chill Guy Clicker

Who says he does?

Theemile wrote:

danielcraig wrote:If Duncan was aware of the Alignment's unethical practices but not its potentially malignant turn, what specific events or revelations on Sphinx might push him to fully reject the Alignment and align himself with Stephanie’s perspective instead?

Who says he does?

Pretty sure danielcraig was using an AI-generated post just to spam a product. Insightful AI, though.

I think he will align with Stephanie because we know the MAlign will not have information about the treecats we know Duncan already has. He may not ever be able to scientifically prove it, but that would not have stopped the MAlign from devoting ever more resources to acquiring treecats.

danielcraig wrote:If Duncan was aware of the Alignment's unethical practices but not its potentially malignant turn, what specific events or revelations on Sphinx might push him to fully reject the Alignment and align himself with Stephanie’s perspective instead?

Theemile wrote:Who says he does?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Pretty sure danielcraig was using an AI-generated post just to spam a product. Insightful AI, though.

Leaving aside why you suspect AI, why do you call an "insightful" question spam?

PS: Aside from pure guess work, I expect that we actually have to read the book in order to be able to answer that question.

tlb wrote:Leaving aside why you suspect AI, why do you call an "insightful" question spam?

Because the post is the first from a newly created account and contains a link to a website, but is obscured by setting the text colour to white. Hover over the line below the text and you'll see a link.

Previously, I'd seen just a repeat of some post question to pretend to be a real member. This one appears to be just an AI summary, reusing words from my post, where I said:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Duncan knows about some unethical practices, but that's all. We don't get any conclusive evidence that the Alignment was malignant, so we can't get any that Duncan would know about it either.

It's on-topic, but subtly inaccurate, as most generative AI tends to be: just what is "Stephanie's perspective?" I called it insightful because it cleared the (admittedly pretty low) bar for AI.

PS: Aside from pure guess work, I expect that we actually have to read the book in order to be able to answer that question.

More like speculating what happens on the next book after this.

Usually I can spot the hidden links. Good catch.